Immigration Bill is Un-American

The current Immigration Bill violates some basic American Values. While these values are not ensconced in law they do form a significant part of the moral\social structure that makes us America: The Declaration of Independence

quote:

---

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

---

Thus any immigration bill that discriminates between individuals violates these concepts of equality and rights, most especially their right to the pursuit of happiness. Statue of Liberty

quote:

---

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

---

This has been the source of much of the vitality of the US economy and society, and every school child is brought up with this emblem of taking care of the world's rejects. The new bill turns this concept on it's head.
http://img.timeinc.net/...oons/20070527/02_cartoons_0604.jpg
(from Page not found | TIME)What we need is a system that (a) treats everyone as an equal, giving them an equal opportunity to become citizens, (b) introduces them to the basic values and concepts that form American society, and (c) provides an education for those in need of such.We also have a problem with "itinerant poor" citizens in the US, and it would be unfair to give immigrants greater opportunity than existing citizens. Back in the time of the "New Deal" there was a program for those left destitute by the depression, called the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC):Error 404 - Page Not Found

quote:

---

This environmental program put 2.5 million unmarried men to work maintaining and restoring forests, beaches, and parks. Workers earned only $1 a day but received free board and job training. From 1934 to 1937, this program funded similar programs for 8,500 women.

​

The CCC taught the men and women of America how to live independently, thus, increasing their self esteem.

---

This program was a double success, as it not only returned people to being valuable contributors to the overall economy, it allowed the construction of many civilian project, such as roads in National Parks, at considerable saving in public funds. It is also a part of the national heritage of values of taking care of americans.I suggest such a program be resurrected, that it be combined with welfare reform and immigration, and also include education to a high school level for those who need it (including English composition and speaking), with these conditions:

• that it be optional for any US citizen,
• that it specifically be open to those US citizens who have run out of unemployment and welfare options,
• that it be mandatory for all new immigrants,
• that any immigrants convicted of a crime (more than a misdemeanor) be deported,
• that it include some form of "national service" similar to the CCC
• such "national service" could include what is currently called the "Guest Worker Program"
• that graduation from the system would mean passing the civic, language, etcetera tests required for Citizenship
• that citizenship for new immigrants would be dependent on graduation
• the length of stay in the system for immigrants would depend on ability to pass tests at grade levels leading up to high school equivalence (GED)
• length of stay for US citizens would be voluntary on an annual basis (either re-up or leave)
• payment would be fixed ($15 per day? for "luxuries") plus room and board, child care and basic medical services

This would provide a safety-net for US citizens as well as a work-to-citizenship program for immigrants.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : .Edited by RAZD, : ..Edited by RAZD, : crime added

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

I agree RAZD. I would expect all immigrants to experience the same opportunity my Grandfather had.But I also don't know if we became the United States of Mexico, if that would be a good thing. What are the implication's?My Grandparents came here for a better way of life, not to make a few bucks and then head back to Italy, and build their dreams house, and start a business over there.I am by no means an expert on this subject, but this is what I see.

Personally I see no problem with this. There is probably more money sucked out of the economy by high CEO salaries than this could approach. In exchange we would have a much broader base for the economy to grow on, a base that would provide opportunity for the great American dream to anyone with the drive & commitment to get there -- another basic American value. I also think the CCC program with immigrants being in it for 2-3 years before being able to become citizens would also take the wind out of the sails of the indentured servant illegal immigration purveyors (whether mexican or asian or whatever) AND it would provide the workers so that those illegal immigration purveyors would have little opportunity to operate.These are also real issue with immigration reform.Current illegals? Line up and take your chances with everyone else, no benefit for the years already spent (other than maybe learning english to some extent). There may need to be a lottery system to match immigration to jobs & needs.This could also be a program that could be used by high school graduates to learn a job skill and provide community service for a year of two before either going on to university or into the work force (with some experience).Enjoy.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

quote:

---

My Grandparents came here for a better way of life, not to make a few bucks and then head back to Italy, and build their dreams house, and start a business over there.

---

I assume your grands came here legally? I know I did.The issue is ILLEGAL, meaning against our laws. They sneak in, wantonly ignoring our sovereignty. If we did it to them, there would be an international outcry against us.

quote:

---

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but this is what I see.

---

You don't have to be an expert to understand the difference between legal and illegal immigrant.

quote:

---

I agree RAZD. I would expect all immigrants to experience the same opportunity my Grandfather had.

---

However, they do NOT have the same opportunity, they have taken what is not theirs by stealth and deceit.The only mercy for these disrespectful people is to send them home without first going to jail. Where they may use their ingenuity and willingness to work to better their own country.

If there is no work for the illegal and less benefit than doing it legal the problem will go away.This program would displace the illegals, fill the same jobs with people taking the legal course with the carrot of citizenship at the end of the service time. Work available would depend on ability and education for those with more than high school education and ability to speak english (as well as you do ), but the basic program would replace the sweatshops and indentured servants that plaque our nation now.The current illegals would have to apply for the program like everyone else.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

I added one dealing with crime to the list.The program could also be expanded to sentencing for minor crimes and misdemeanors: can you imagine PH being sentenced to do manual labor for a year and live in dorms with common folk? I think she'd prefer jail.This would take juvenile offenders out of their neighborhoods and into a different culture. Can you imagine a "ghetto spoiled" kid mixed with people who want to become citizens?Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This is like saying if there is no alcohol men would stop getting drunk and do all the immoral stuff. But you see, prohibition never worked.As long as there are illegals around offering rediculously cheap labor (and I'm not saying this as a put down), there will always be employers willing to do just about anything and find loopholes to hire them. While I agree with your proposed program, I don't agree that it is a realistic proposal. There are simply too many capitalists and opportunists nowadays for this idea to even get read. If someone like Bush got in the oval office for 8 years, how the hell do you think you can convince the very people that voted him in to agree to your program?

---

We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

​

Disclaimer:

​

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

​

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

While we are expanding the program to include those citizens convicted of minor crimes, let's change the sentencing practices from time served to goal directed.When someone is convicted of a minor crime, instead of sentencing them to some arbitrary time period, make the sentence run until some specified goal is accomplished.For example, it could be the acquisition of a GED or College degree, learning some designated skill that could be translated into workforce skill after release, or some form of reparation such as replacement of objects lost or damaged because of the criminal incident or creation of some new facility that improves the general welfare of the community.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, I have a certificate from Ellis Island. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't we trying to make a way for them to be legal? Yea...why?

This program would be cheaper for the employer and offer more for the immigrant. It's not rocket math ... It offers no amnesty and no reward to illegals. They will find they need to join or go home as the work done by illegals becomes taken over by CCC legals. Joining, they are no different than other immigrants.Enjoy.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Let me give you an example of what I meant in my last post.Governor Blagoavich (I'm too lazy to google his name for correct spelling) of Illinois last year proposed a change in the Illinois tax system. You see, for decades the biggest corporations in Illinois have been able to get away with not paying any taxes at all because of a loophole they found. I don't fully understand it myself, but if a company makes more than such and such amount in profit, say $5 million, it doesn't have to pay taxes at all.Gov Blag wants to change that. He wants to close this loophole. He's been going around repeating himself that there will be no tax increase for any business whatsoever. There will be no tax increase for landowners whatsoever. There will be no tax increase for imports and outports whatsoever. There will be no sales tax increase whatsoever. The only thing that will change is if a company makes more than $5 or so million in profit it has to pay taxes just like the rest of us. He has also been repeating himself that virtually all of the extra tax money will be used to upgrade the illinois education system. Aside from that, he has been repeating himself that he would oppose any income or property tax increase.People in Illinois are now overwhelmingly opposed to this tax change with the slogan that "this is the biggest tax increase in the history of illinois".I've been listening to interviews after interviews of republicans that are opposed to this tax change. Even though the reporters have been repeatedly asking the republicans the specific reasons for the opposition to this tax change, I have literally not heard anything from them except "this is the biggest tax increase in the history of illinois".As a matter of fact, I predict that Gov Bla committed political suicide the moment he proposed this budget change.So tell me, how are you going to prevent the religious right from using strawman and such to pound your position?

---

We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

​

Disclaimer:

​

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

​

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

If the goal is "rehabilitation" you would think there would have to be some goals, not just time spent sitting on rock. In fact there used to be a program of providing education to prisoners, and the participants had the lowest rate of recidivism of any rehab program. It was discontinued because people didn't think prisoners should get such extra treatment.More than education, exposure to other social environments may be the biggest plus to opening young eyes to their possibilities not being limited by their way of living.It's the old "give a man a fish and you feed him for one day, teach him to fish and you feed him for life" eh?Enjoy.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

quote:

---

If the goal is "rehabilitation" you would think there would have to be some goals, not just time spent sitting on rock. In fact there used to be a program of providing education to prisoners, and the participants had the lowest rate of recidivism of any rehab program. It was discontinued because people didn't think prisoners should get such extra treatment.

​

More than education, exposure to other social environments may be the biggest plus to opening young eyes to their possibilities not being limited by their way of living.

​

It's the old "give a man a fish and you feed him for one day, teach him to fish and you feed him for life" eh?

---

Well ... I don't need to tell you we think alike. Too many cooks in the kitchen whose apron strings are yanked by too many hands. No one is in charge, and most certainly no one is in control.
If this is a recent pic of you, you're ready for the bike. But, what of the canoe?

quote:

---

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't we trying to make a way for them to be legal?

---

I'll help fund a broad enough highway to send them all back to Mayhico at the same time. Heck, I'll help build it. I hope to God we are not going to make a way for them to stay. That is simply the signal for more to come and expect the same treatment. They are here illegally, basta.

Then be prepared to pay $5 an onion in the supermarket. You still didn't answer, why?