Standards for Being a good Peaceful or Xian soldier

I just reread this thread and I realized that I missed this in my first reply...

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I am a member of a PSD (Protective Service Detail) for a general. My job is to get him from point A to point B safely.

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First of all, I thought you said that your job was to "Break things and kill"?Also, I should have been more clear. US military personnel do try to kill fighters in Iraq on a regular basis, correct? Well, then is that a sign that those soldiers relish killing people?Let us review why I asked the question in the first place and where I believe you have been avoiding my questions. I have edited out sentences that do not pertain to this specific issue. I have also inserted comments throughout in italics to illustrate my arguments.From message 12

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I am not relishing in killing other human beings, but when I'm out doing missions it is the other human being that is relishing killing me.

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I asked 5 questions above, but you only answered one.

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The ones you left unanswered require you to think about how you as a US soldier appear to the Iraqis and also how you think they might view the US military's presence there. IOW, those questions require you to put yourself in their position, in their shoes, see things from their perspective instead of dismissively calling them "yahoos".From message 16

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Because they try to kill me on a regular basis?

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Again, if US soldiers are also trying to kill these fighters on a regular basis (including you, if we are to believe your self-description), then why do you assume that they relish killing?Is it so impossible that they see killing us as a neccessary evil that they have been driven to because they see no other choice?Like holmes has repeatedly tried to get you to understand, if you were a resident of a poor region with no military that was invaded by a rich country with a huge, powerful military, and you viewed these invaders as sick torturers and God-haters, then wouldn't you end up fighting pretty much the way your opponents are fighting?

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

Holmes:Your points about not knowing me are noted, and I believe that we have came to an understanding of each others position.Now in regards to the following point you make: I am not sure exactly which site, and joke this was in reference to, as when it was first mentioned I had no interest in the content of the site. For arguement sake though, I did check the link in the subjects signature, purely for the purpose of debating the point. However I did not see any joke, upon my brief investigation of the site. I also have no desire to wade through the site. If you have a copy of the joke, and wish me to read it, I shall.In relation to your comment, I also make the following points for your consideration:

The subject in question, may not have written the joke.
NB: Unless he had, speculating as to his endorsement of the jokes ethical proposition, would be wrong.

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Written material does not automatically denote, a overall agreeance with the topic.
NB: If I was to write an article about a murderer's rights, does that mean I endorse murder?

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A link to a site does not automatically imply to me, endorsement of everything within that site.
NB: I promote EvC as a site, that is worthwhile, and containing useful information. The fact that deragatory comments are also on this site, does not automatically make me guilty of the same, or prove my endorsement of such.

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My criteria, is exactly that. It is mine and based on my belief, it does not automatically make it right.
NB: To apply my criteria, to anyone other than me, as what is expected or right, would be to apply the same rules of measure, that have promoted negative and generalistic attitudes toward many cultures.

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One brief moment of foolish behaviour, does not a person make.
NB: If I stole a lolly at 10, does that mean I am now a thief? If I read a joke about men today, or you about women, and we laugh at the humour, does that prove automatically that we hold negative views of the group?

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Shaz

I want to make sure you understand that the above condition is not the only one on the ground and not the only portrait I am trying to paint. There are many different factions which make up what is being called the "insurgency".There are a lot of foreign agents infiltrating into Iraq and causing problems, including the killing of Iraqis. So we are not just talking about people that were invaded (the Iraqis), some truly are offensive opponents of ours trying to do what we are doing, which is determine a specific destiny for the future of Iraq.Many Iraqis are more pissed about the foreign "insurgents" than about the presence of US soldiers (including the invasion) and indeed want the soldiers to remove the insurgents.However, callous behavior and attitudes definitely push Iraqis into positions of wanting to fight us (which is what you are getting at) as well as strengthen foreign elements, both in tactics and in numbers (something additional I was also trying to get at). We are playing right into our enemy's hands image wise.I might add we also seem to be becoming the enemy.I'm glad you pointed out the massive discrepency between "I kill and break things" and the fact that he's actually in the protective service whose actual mission is to "get a person from A to B". I was going to say something, but then wasn't sure I wanted to hear the rationalization.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Agreed. It wasn't just his signature tag, it was a specific link he provided as being something funny to listen to in the sandbox thread. Here ya go...http://1vb-blacksheep.com/vets/tal/john_laws_and_arabs.mp3He didn't write it but he says it is funny. It may not have much to do with endorsing the ignorance and politics within it, as the segment has a lot to say about sand which is what he said was the point. However it does require some sympathy with the nature of the politics not to be a bit offended by its content (even if one finds it funny).He appears to find it funny enough to put in his own directory of the website for his squad. That means it is not a general thing, it is his interest.I am not suggesting he should not find it funny, nor am I saying it is not funny. Indeed I am not even saying he should not promote it as being funny. It is however objectively an off color joke with patently racist and anti-Islamic and antiArabic sentiment. That is not an opinion but a statement of fact.I assume this isn't completely out there for the public to get at readily, but take a listen and imagine what you would think if you were Islamic and then heard that on a US soldier's site.Not exactly an ideal situation. And it is not what I would consider showing proper respect to other cultures which is his duty as an officer. On his own site unrelated to the military, okay. Tied to the military, not really.Let me also repeat, I like patently offensive jokes. This one was a little too ignorant and hateful for my tastes, but that does not mean someone else might laugh. Okeydoke.I do feel it is inappropriate to be on a military linked site (which tends to make it look like it is a military approved position), and I do think that if it does represent his feelings about the people and the area (and I am quite clear in asking whether this is true, not stating that it is) then it would be problematic. I am making no assumptions.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Holmes:I listened to the piece. John Laws is an Australian, as am I. For the record, 'Lawsy'is a famous/infamous (depending on who you speak to) radio announcer, journalist, author, who has/had an almost national, daily radio show. What I heard in relation to the link was I believe an accurate representation of the 'Lawsy', approach. However I will add, that the dialogue as it stood, does not signify what context Lawsy was promoting the piece as. That I found aspects of the piece funny, is something one may not understand, unless Australian, or able to comprehend Aussie humour. We also unashamebly take delight in poking fun at ourselves, particularly our thongs, love of sport and sandy beaches. Does this mean that I am also problematic, to the position in Iraq?
(Bear in mind you do not know where I stand, in relation to socio-economics, or instigating reform.)However in response to the question, of what I would think if I was Islamic, and heard the segment. Which for the record is mere speculation, as I could not even begin to presume an ability to comprehend. For the sake of some equilibrium though, I concede that I may in all probability take offence. Which is why I choose not to endorse such jokes, or anything deragatory to any race. I do need to question your motive Holmes, with the continued effort to promote your position to me, in regards to this subject.Do you feel that I have condoned, the war in Iraq, or promoted ignorance toward the situation? Do you feel that I have attacked you personally, or judged you unfavourably in respect of your position, on the topic? If you believe any of these to be true, then I would gladly hear that, and offer tangible proof unrelated to this site, pertaining to my personal opinion, and character.My position in regards, to my previous two posts on this thread, still stands however. What I initially offered, was my interpretation of what I believe constitutes to be an ideal soldier, based solely on my perspective of the world. Ideal's are almost impossible to achieve, and my interpretation has no bearing, on anyone else, it is mine alone. If you wish to continue debating semantics with me, then let us do so, but without any personal reference to a specific person. Discussing the moral position of a particular person, I have stressed on numerous occasions is something that I am reluctant to do. Please note Holmes, my emphasis in that sentence, I would equally apply the same sentiment, to Osama bin Laden, George Bush, John Laws, Holmes, or anyone.Now for the record I will add, that I feel like throwing a foam brick at you Holmes. No malice intent, simple light hearted jest, because I am laughingly frustrated at the repetitiveness of my posts.Shaz

To be fair holmes, I do not believe that the site is any kind of a military approved site. It is a gaming site, for an online game called America's Army. The site seems to have been created by a group of gamers who happen to be military or ex-military.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

I suppose I should have taken a longer look at the site. I now offer a huge apology to Tal. That is a perfectly okay place to have it posted, though I still hope it does not reflect an attitude about the place and people (besides the sand I guess).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Wait a second I said I had found it funny until enough ignorant statement were made and then turned violent for no reason, which I also admitted is just my personal thing.I firmly defend offensive jokes and I do find them funny. I simply don't like them when they include enough ignorant statements that it starts making the teller look more funny than the joke. Like okay, people make fun of the french, but to me when they start making fun of the french and include references to french fries it detracts from the joke... for me. Okay most of your reply I have no idea where you are coming from. I was not trying to say anyone that liked the joke was against Iraqis or for the Iraq War. Heck, the piece could have been made without the Iraq War ever existing.I was only saying if one does not see what is the offensive parts then one must have some sympathy with the racist views espoused. That said, one can recognize the racism and the offensiveness and still find it funny.I then said I didn't think it was proper for a soldier to be having that piece connected to the army. And now I am eating a very large slice of humble pie as it has just been pointed out it is a video game site for a game called America's Army, and not actually belonging to any actual American army. In this case I take it all back, there is no problem of him having it there at all.To my mind I was fine with dropping the whole subject but then you asked for the info on the joke so I supplied it and answered your points about it.Indeed I thought my answer was more or less addressing a generic soldier, simply using a specific example of material.We can definitely leave specifics right out, and drop the whole Iraq thing.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Agreed Holmes.
I look forward to butting heads with you on other topics, I enjoyed seeing the strength of your convictions.Cheers Shaz

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I want to make sure you understand that the above condition is not the only one on the ground and not the only portrait I am trying to paint. There are many different factions which make up what is being called the "insurgency".

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There are a lot of foreign agents infiltrating into Iraq and causing problems, including the killing of Iraqis. So we are not just talking about people that were invaded (the Iraqis), some truly are offensive opponents of ours trying to do what we are doing, which is determine a specific destiny for the future of Iraq.

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Many Iraqis are more pissed about the foreign "insurgents" than about the presence of US soldiers (including the invasion) and indeed want the soldiers to remove the insurgents.

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Yes, I understand that these are the major issues, which is why I used the word "region" instead of "citizen".

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However, callous behavior and attitudes definitely push Iraqis into positions of wanting to fight us (which is what you are getting at) as well as strengthen foreign elements, both in tactics and in numbers (something additional I was also trying to get at). We are playing right into our enemy's hands image wise.

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I might add we also seem to be becoming the enemy.

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I agree.We are, more and more, being viewed by the people in the Arab/moslem region as a bullying Christian invading force that is very friendly with Israel and covetous of mideast oil. The people who greatly oppose us in that entire region now do not have to travel anywhere to kill lots of Americans. We came to them, and in many cases gave them even more reason to hate us and think we are the devil (Abu G).

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I'm glad you pointed out the massive discrepency between "I kill and break things" and the fact that he's actually in the protective service whose actual mission is to "get a person from A to B". I was going to say something, but then wasn't sure I wanted to hear the rationalization.

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Yeah, well, buck up soldier. Sometimes we have to do what we don't want to do.

Fair enough, I worked in Strategy, Plans, and Assessment for MNF-I (Multi-National Force Iraq), does that make me a planner or a strategist?I now work for the Economics Effects Branch, does that make me an civil/mechanical/electrical engineer?Hell, I even mop and take out the garbage, but does that make me a janitor?I guess if you guys wanted to discuss the merits/shortcomings of the Iraqi Campaign, we can start another thread on the subject.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Now THAT would be an interesting topic, although I'm fairly sure threads for this already exist (assuming they haven't been closed because of degenerating into a flamewar.)

My message #29 in this thred is, remarkably, on topic here and is still waiting for a reply.I am in no rush, I just want to make sure it doesn't get lost.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 10:00 AM