Standards for Being a good Peaceful or Xian soldier

A new EvCer has accidentally raised an issue I would like to investigate. While he might be a great guy and very peaceloving, his words and persona did not seem to be that at all.Only me and Mike seem to have been confused/concerned about his mentioning a fundamentalist Xian belief system while apparently also enjoying killing, or being proud of killing. Other fundies have rushed to his defense, in such a rush they even missed what I was actually saying. Their defense only adds to my confusion.We are not just fighting a war against Terrorists. With Iraq in particular we were fighting a "rogue nation" whose demerits included employing an ignorant and callous armed forces. That was supposed to be opposite of us... the good guys.Yet here we see a US soldier who appears to proudly display death imagery (does this not seem remiscent to anyone else of the SS iconography?) and ready gallows humor and negative euphemisms.To me, this should be against standards for proper military service. Not that gallows humor should be outlawed or something, but that such things should not become catchy glib commentary that is part of normal conversation. And certainly the iconography appears inconsistent with the image our nation pretends to.I mean exactly how is an innocent Iraqi supposed to take a soldier wearing a death's head image? Or how is the world supposed to look at our troops when they proudly display such gruesome imagery which not 40 years ago we deplored?I know I cannot speak directly as to what a good Xian soldier should be, but having known family members that were good Xian soldiers I can say they would certainly have been appalled by what Tal displayed in his posts thus far.It seems to me that while Xians can be good soldiers, humility about that mission and a seriousness about death would mark the Xian soldier from others. That is to say it seems that way given what I know from my Xian soldier relatives and repeatedly being told here that Xianity is all about peace and love, even if they must fight to protect themselves sometimes.What standards do people think soldiers should adhere to regarding death and the populace which they will find themselves among?...1) in order to be a good US soldier, and
2) to be a good Xian soldier.This can be practical and theoretical.This message has been edited by holmes, 12-31-2004 19:22 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I've just read the thread, and IMHO - you're closer to the position of Christ than anyone else there, and I'm definitely baffled by some things christians have said. Christ's example is one of peace, as you mentioned.As far as I'm concerned, if one is Christian, he must look at Christ's words as having the most weight.

I understand where you are coming from holmes. I too was rubbed the wrong way by the comments. I grew up with brothers in the military and my ex was in the military. My oldest brother was extremely pro-military. He belonged to ROTC in high school, he joined the army right after graduation, he applied to Westpoint for 4 straight years until his persistence got him accepted. He was in Korea, Granada, Kuwait and has just returned from over a year in Iraq. He is a devout Christian and is now a colonel in the reserves. I know that he would be disgusted by an attitude of "I kill, I break stuff" and a viewpoint of giving the "martyrs what they want".I always viewed the military as a noble profession, protecting me an my family and ensuring the continuation of my freedoms. Relishing this type of job when it means killing other humans is very disquieting.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

holmes:As you're aware, I'm pretty strongly pro-military with a fair amount of service myownself. I've encountered quite a few young troops who like to play the "macho military" card. I tend to rather regard Tal as young, relatively immature kid who's trying to show how unafraid he is and how "masculine" he is. I was both unsurprised and unoffended by his stance and words - I've run into similar enough times. I was actually rather surprised that you were so aggressive in your posts to him (and him a complete newbie to boot). You're usually not that bad except to real flakes.I think a simple request to remove the offensive imagery would have been sufficient. Then we could have liberally blasted him for his YECism - a much more critical failure of rationality IMO.My 10 kopeks.edited to add: although it's probably too late. Now you've managed to put his back up. It'll be a cold day in the Xians' non-existent Hell before he'll change his sig. You've called him on his machismo.This message has been edited by Quetzal, 12-31-2004 20:32 AM

having liars for christ is not bad enough?this to me is a fault of the right emphasizing "values" that are not american and that often run counter to american values.the current administration is a case in point.and if anyone thinks that their personal "values" trump the american ones then I have to ask how american are they at heart?being proud of killing human beings is not part of {{liberty, justice, freedom and equality}} american values.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Holmes:First, I would like to say, 'thank you for seperating this topic from the greeting's thread'. Being one who has replied at the other thread, I was stunned to see it degenerate into an almost free for all, of deragatory implications.That is off the topic here though, so I would like to clarify a point, in relation to this topic. That is indeed not the case, the fact that I have welcomed someone, is not an automatic assertion that I endorse anything they represent. For example: I was confused by the signature pic, however I chose to overlook it for the time being. If that was the correct or non correct thing to do on my part, I do not know. What I did do initially, was thank the person in question for sharing the other pic, and hopefully extend welcome. The signature pic, I was contemplating speaking to the subject person about privately.Now taking into account your comment: In regards to the populace, my personal opinion is that one should do their utmost to show respect, to the culture. That in no way asserts endorsement or agreeance, it is merely about being non judgemental and offering positive regard for others. The stance I personally take is one of love for all things, unconditional love, which seperates the doer from the deed. I seek not to judge another, however in loving all I believe the basic precept of that is to also minimise harm to others. Therefore I will, and do take a stand when necessary.In the practical sense, I apply this as blessing thy enemy, though if necessary I may smite or rebuke, I still seek to minimise harm. Harm can be amongst other things, imminent physical danger, implying judgement against one, trampling ones beliefs or culture, or merely showing a lack of integrity. Anything that contravenes these, and inflicts harm on an individual I will interject on. Having said this however, I should emphasis; I do apply judgement as to 'what harm is', and I attempt to do that using the basic precept of love.I am not a soldier, not in the military sense. Though I have warred, and had more than my share of battles in relation to humanity. In seeking to minimise harm, I am also aware, that at times I have inadvertantly brought harm to another. In relation to that, I then attempt to rectify any harm I have inadvertanly caused:

i.e. To usurp someone from authority, I will tend to the practicalities, until a replacement is available to overtake that seat.

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Therefore the standards I think one should adhere to, and not merely for a soldier on a military field, but for general life:

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Have love and/or regard, as a basic tenet.

Judge the deed not the doer.

If in doubt seek clarification, and/or counsel, if available.

Bless your enemy.

Minimise harm.

Be responsible in/for actions.

Accept consequences of action.

Rectify damage if possible.

Openly endorse, and advocate all of the above.

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Shaz

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He was in Korea, Granada, Kuwait and has just returned from over a year in Iraq. He is a devout Christian and is now a colonel in the reserves. I know that he would be disgusted by an attitude of "I kill, I break stuff" and a viewpoint of giving the "martyrs what they want".

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I doubt it. But if you are still in contact with him why don't you ask him?

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Relishing this type of job when it means killing other humans is very disquieting.

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You assume I'm a warmonger becaused I used a simple phrase to describe what the Infantry does. I am not relishing in killing other human beings, but when I'm out doing missions it is the other human being that is relishing killing me. I have to stop him from completing that task.

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I tend to rather regard Tal as young, relatively immature kid who's trying to show how unafraid he is and how "masculine" he is.

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If you consider 28 young, then yes. Unafraid? No, I still jump when VBIEDs go off. Masculine? The only person's opinion on that subject that matters to me is my wife's.

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I was actually rather surprised that you were so aggressive in your posts to him (and him a complete newbie to boot). You're usually not that bad except to real flakes.

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At some point in the thread I think he asked my permission to get aggressive with me. He extended that courtesy and I appreciate it. I told him it was cool. You don't learn much if you sit in your little happy place and don't allow your ideas/principles/faith/standards to come under fire.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

I was strong, but not initially aggressive. I was offended because I know people there and I know something about the military and he didn't portray what I think we are supposed to be portraying.I take this all very very seriously. Our side is the aggressor (for right or wrong) and we have killed a lot of innocent people. I think we are supposed to be setting an example for what is to come there.As it stands though I was not directly calling him anything or demanding he change anything. I didn't like it and it seemed inconsistent so I was asking for clarification.Admittedly I did jump the gun to ask about dating issues and he correctly pointed out I should have waited on that subject.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Yeah I figured there were others keeping quiet. Personally I feel this is too important to be quiet about, though I respect that other may have different methods.In any case I was surprised to see so little reaction given the rather extreme reaction by Xian fundies towards atheists and others about violence and nihilism. I am pretty much in line with your thinking. I guess I am a little less on the bless your enemy part. I believe in cursing them... while respecting them (coward is thrown around too lightly these days... until they give in at which time they must be treated wholly with respect.Do you see a difference at all between a secular and Xian soldier?Oh by the way, on the "respect other cultures" angle, did you go to Tal's site to hear the joke about Islamic terrorists? Not that I have any feeling towards terrorists but the joke ends up painting a rather large group of innocents with the same brush, and also (another piece in the puzzle which is Tal's persona) appears to equate overtly sexual freedom with "good" and why someone would want to live.This message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 08:23 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I know mine would be. I can't ask as they are dead now, but there simply is no question about this. The worldview of military as HONORABLE PROFESSION and Xian as respecting death and suffering were anathema to the persona and iconography you displayed. I have already said what I was taught separates our guys from theirs. There really was more than just that one phrase. The whole "I help them become martyrs" thing is really silly and offensive.It does not mean you are a warmonger but it is certainly the persona of one. Thus there is a disconnect between what you are and what you portray.Maybe this is better understood when I talk about this in another light. We need to help Iraqis build a new army and police force. Do you think it would be great to have them running around thinking an accurate description of their job is "I kill, I break things"? Is that the example you want to set for future Iraqi soldiers?Being a soldier is more than just function it also requires appropriate mindset and discipline. That is what this thread is about of course. Because the nature of war is dehumanizing and can easily lead one to unhealthy and unproductive behavior, it is important that a soldier stay above just their function and strive to uphold humane attitudes and concerns. Heheheh... thank you. I figured you were tough like that and I respect it. That's why I was so surprised to see so many people treating you with what I consider a great disrespect, like a delicate flower or something.I recognize that you came on willing to debate, though I suspect it was more about EvC than the issues I confronted you with. It looks like we are adversaries but that is of course what we need if we are on a debate forum. You can even be tough on me, I don't care.I am still confused about what you believe because what you present does seem inconsistent. For example you discussed loose morals of atheists being a detriment, yet the joke clip on your site is pretty clearly using loose morals as a benefit.In any case, I would value your input in this thread. You are a soldier, and a Xian, and have taken part in a war where we were fighting an established army which was supposedly morally compromised compared to ours, and now a variable insurgency which is viewed as wholly without a moral compass.What do you view as the distinction between a good soldier and a bad one? That is what signs would you look for as indicative that they represent your side? Also what would distinguish the devout Xian soldiers from nonXian soldiers around them (besides stated faith)?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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edited to add: although it's probably too late. Now you've managed to put his back up. It'll be a cold day in the Xians' non-existent Hell before he'll change his sig. You've called him on his machismo.

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Machismo is stupid.It is the refuge of small men.

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I am not relishing in killing other human beings, but when I'm out doing missions it is the other human being that is relishing killing me.

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How do you know this?Couldn't it be that the people of Iraq just want the occupying US army to get out and leave them alone?Do you think that THEY think that you relish killing them?Why do you assume they relish killing you? Couldn't it be that they feel the same about killing as you do; that you do not relish it?Do you have to tell yourself that they relish killing you in order to be able to go out and kill them?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-01-2005 09:24 AM

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"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

Right O. Let's see if I can clear some stuff up. The construction workers will build stuff.
The police force will enforce the law of the land.
The Iraqi Guard/Commandos will "kill people and break things."The Guard/Commandos being trained by SF are learning how to deal with terrorists thugs that kill innocent Iraqis. There are only 2 ways to deal with them, capture or kill. Thus, killing terrorists is thier primary function. Let me first start off by saying that I will always strive to emulate jesus, by I will never succeed, at least in this life. There's not much you can say when rockets/mortars come in but, "OH EXPLETIVE!"I cuss quite frequently when I'm out driving THE most dangerous road in the world. It's alot like spy hunter really, you travel at 90mph weaving through drivers who have never used anything resembling road rules while dodging small arms/RPGs from the side and VBIEDs that are surfing the highway trying to blow you up.Should I cuss? No. Does my human nature take over at that point? Yep.Now, as to the helping them martyr themselves joke. That is not a joke, as that is what most of those yahoos want. Generally the leaders send their guys to do their dirty work.The "Sand f**kin sand everywhere" mp3. Is it a sin if I laugh when I hear it? I dunno, but its definately in my nature to laugh at it. The key is not to take "everything" too seriously. Shooting the guy singing may be overboard, but I understand the context of the gag. How do you see us as not having a moral compass? Abu Grhaib is an example of bad soldiering. Although I don't blame the soldiers. There are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders. That issue was a leadership failure.I'm not sure what you mean by distinguishing between devout christians and non as far as soldiering goes.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

I'll accept that you were merely asking for clarification, although as I said I felt you were pretty strong right out of the starting gate. However, it's not worth arguing about, especially since I tend to agree with you here. Besides, Tal apparently enjoys it. Now if we could just get him into one of the YEC threads...

No argument, my lady.