Belief...a choice?

Yes I do. Yes. It appears that we agree.

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Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

Actually, I dont believe that I will go to heaven. Even if I am a "good boy" as well as a believer. If, and I believe so, that God is our creator and creator of all things, then I believe he created this world we live in for that exact purpose: a place for his "physical" creations to live long and prosper(to quote another otherworldly being). As for you arguing my analogy concerning the wind, yes, you are correct, we can feel & experience its influence but still we can not physically see it. To many, "seeing is believing" and that is where my analogy lies. If you want to be pedantic then take for example an isolated tribe that has always done things the same way for many generations until a 1st world conglomerate affects their way of life by perhaps destroying certain ecosystems,ie:wildlife or flora dying inexplicably(to them)all outside of their small "world" that repercusses upon the tribe, with no physical indication to them of what is happenning.

Thankyou for your "fatherly" approach to my comment. It would seem that you consider me simplistic or perhaps even naive and therefore your approach is borderline patronistic. If you cannot see an analogy when it is used then I doubt you are able to see much beyond anything that you cannot touch, taste or feel and therefore I will dissregard your comment.

I totally understand the source that you believe in, and I totally understand why not too many people understand it. It is not that Christians are dumb nor are the science minded logicians who seek proof. I would add to your statement this fact:
The evidence for belief is an impartation that is not measureable apart from the value of it. It is He, and He is alive! We have crossed over from logic and science to faith, and belief. Belief is a choice all right, but the initial choice is that of God who imparts His experience/evidence in to the believer.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-01-2004 03:12 AM

It would seem that many people dont like or cannot understand an analogy, fine. I am not a "Bible Basher" , I do not go to church every Sunday, and I dont beat up people who are atheists or evolutionists. I am simply a person that took a look around, saw that many things are missing in this world of ours & can see that logically if we all did a little more of what the Bible says we should do then we wouldnt be cutting each others heads off on video & generally killing or abusing each other. The Bible is the only book that professes to be the word of God and is also the oldest surviving book in the history of mankind that offers a start- to-present day history & guidline for "happy living" all in one package. it also give unfailing forecasts of what is to come. Try Mathew chapter 24. Whatever anybodies views are on the current crisis in the Middle East or Viet Nam or the previuos World Wars no one can deny that it all comes down to needless death. Perhaps the evolutionists would classify all of the above to survival of the fittest just as the "theory" of evolution advocates. If that is the case you guys must be relying on your fitness if war should ever erupt in your country.

Phatboy,
Thanks for the objective and well spoken viewpoint. I would add another simple analogy: (I like analogies) My 14 yr old daughter has just discovered she pretty well knows everything. It is in some way enlightening to watch her express herself(when I am not annoyed out of my mind) as I see so much of myself in her when I was her age. I can also see my stepfather at present, nearing 70, who, except for the crisis approaching his triple by-pass has rarely, if ever acknowledged the presence or existance of God. At the time of course he did. I think we all approach & recognise the existance of God at sometime in our lives and I suspect it is usually when we are at our lowest. What we do with that "inner knowledge" is of course up to us.

AND You may not be many things, but you are indeed a hypocrite. Joshua 6:21: They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. Yes, let's spread a little more of Yahweh and Joshua's love and understanding. Yes, the Crusades and the Inquisition had a few needless deaths as well.Have you heard of Bernard of Clairvaux? How would you classify Joshua's raping of Jericho, Ai, and Hazor?Brian.

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The Bible is the only book that professes to be the word of God

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Really? the other reglious books don't claim this?

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You will find a lot of 2+2=5 in the matters of faith in God (which is another topic in itself) as well as evolution.

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What does this mean?I don't find any "2+2=5" in matters of science at all.

You have concluded based on your personal experience that this is truth that works for you. You have arrived at this conclusion intellectually and emotionally, measured, shaken, and applied, with neither intellect nor emotion ruling. You have achieved balance.
Thank you for letting me see what is part of your experience.

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Your incredulity is the cross you were given? Carry it well and carry it to conclusion.

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Actually, the ability to rationally examine evidence and make conclusions based upon that examination is what brought us out of the superstitious and ignorant Dark Ages and into what is commonly referred to the Age of Enlightenment.It is not a burden; it is a pair of wings.

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Your senses and logic..it seems you would know better than to consult with things so easily influenced by a sinful world and sinful self.

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But what if the world and the self are not sinful at all?

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As for those who choose not to believe, because they connot help it because of their own rationale and logic and it is easier to believe everything is by happenstance?

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Everything is not "by happenstance".

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I will say that if they have chosen so, they have chosen well. How people can believe that something may be had from nothing is my wonder question.

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I do not believe that something comes from nothing.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-01-2004 08:09 AM

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I think we all approach & recognise the existance of God at sometime in our lives and I suspect it is usually when we are at our lowest.

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...which is a dead giveaway that our concept of God/gods is used as a comfort in times of stress.This is not in any way evidence that God exists, only that our culture makes this sort of thinking acceptable if not expected.Oh, BTW, we don't "all" recognize the existence of god at our lowest points.

Because we do not commit the fallacy of composition.

Sounds to me like a restatement of the ol' "there are no atheists in foxholes" lie. Ever watched Touching the Void - it's the true story of a guy who was trapped up a mountain with a broken leg after a climbing accident and how he made his way down - the relevant point from the film being that this guy (an atheist) never once thought to pray, to ask god to help, or to believe in any such thing.

I agree with you and Schraf that people finding God in times of crisis is definitely a suspicious phenomenon. Former comedian Dennis Miller once said "No one ever finds Christ on prom night." The existential horror of the human condition never bothers anyone except when they're in dire straits, and the worst events are the ones that make us wish there were a cosmic meaning and purpose underlying all human endeavor. It's comforting but not remotely realistic to conclude that the innocent are rewarded for their suffering on Earth. It's considered poor taste to point out that the tragedy behind the death of those we love is that we'll never see them again.regards,
Esteban Hambre