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Author Topic:   Belief...a choice?
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 61 of 113 (163977)
11-29-2004 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Morte
11-29-2004 5:18 PM


Re: What makes you think that?
You're Welcome.
...it is also a possibility that some people can believe that which the observable evidence disputes...
The evidence disputes it from your (supposedly dispassionate) point of view. However, filtered through their experiences, preconceived notions, and parent's teaching, it can mean something entirely different. The minutest shred of "evidence" can be the catalyst for an entire belief system. "Train a child...."
(corrected ubb codes, AN)
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-29-2004 05:46 PM

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Morte, posted 11-29-2004 5:18 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Morte, posted 11-29-2004 10:42 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 62 of 113 (164008)
11-29-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by LinearAq
11-27-2004 11:33 PM


Re: Basis of belief....
LinearAq writes:
Then you don't concern yourself with the validity of the evidence? Perhaps you just assumed that the evidence was valid when it supported BibleGod belief and invalid when it did not.
Actually I do concern myself with the validity of the evidence. The problem is that in the origins debate nobody saw creation nor the big bang. So we are then left with pieces of a puzzle. The validity of the evidence for me is proof. Repetable empirical data which for me points in the direction of God but fo others it seems it points to the big bang. evidence is evidence and the truth is the truth whether it supports God or not. Who am I to say that a particular piece of evidence is valid or not? No my friend i am not saying that at all. I leave that to the research and the lab tests and of course I have a brain (the same way you do too) which is capable of studying and examining the resuslts which will lead you to a conclusion.
LinearAq writes:
By saying that belief is a choice then you are saying that no amount of information refuting your belief will change your mind about it as long as you choose to believe it. Then you can choose to believe that 2+2=5 despite all evidence against it.
I don't have that capability. I can't just believe something because someone tells me that it is the right thing to believe.
I dont have it either. All I'm saying is that we have to be very careful. You will find a lot of 2+2=5 in the matters of faith in God (which is another topic in itself) as well as evolution.

Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by LinearAq, posted 11-27-2004 11:33 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 7:12 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 84 by nator, posted 12-01-2004 7:52 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 63 of 113 (164010)
11-29-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by LinearAq
11-29-2004 5:44 PM


Re: What makes you think that?
quote:
The evidence disputes it from your (supposedly dispassionate) point of view.
Bah, I don't have a dispassionate point of view, nor do I claim to.
What I meant is that people can believe something even if they believe the evidence is against it. I was saying nearly the same thing - it has to do with their own way of thinking, their past experiences, how they were taught, their biases. Specifically, I was thinking of displacing evidence with trust (though I suppose that trust really could be a form of evidence, being that the trust is usually built on prior experiences, I just wasn't thinking of it as such at the time of posting).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by LinearAq, posted 11-29-2004 5:44 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 64 of 113 (164071)
11-30-2004 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Itachi Uchiha
11-29-2004 10:24 PM


Re: Basis of belief....
jazzlover_PR writes:
Repetable empirical data which for me points in the direction of God but fo others it seems it points to the big bang.
You have made this God-vs-Big-Bang distinction before. For you it seems that only one of them could have happened. I know it's off topic but I'm curious. Do you subscribe to the Young Earth theories of creationism?
It seems that we agree on belief in that it cannot really be a choice. Rather it is something that grows out of evidence, experience and teaching.

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-29-2004 10:24 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-30-2004 11:09 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 104 by MrHambre, posted 12-03-2004 9:44 AM LinearAq has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 65 of 113 (164078)
11-30-2004 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by LinearAq
11-29-2004 4:58 PM


Re: What makes you think that?
Your incredulity is the cross you were given? Carry it well and carry it to conclusion. Matthew 18:3 may benefit you.
Your senses and logic..it seems you would know better than to consult with things so easily influenced by a sinful world and sinful self. See Matthew 15:18,19, Proverbs 17:9, check out all references that deal with the state of the human mind.
As for those who choose not to believe, because they connot help it because of their own rationale and logic and it is easier to believe everything is by happenstance? I will say that if they have chosen so, they have chosen well. How people can believe that something may be had from nothing is my wonder question.
___________________________
The judgment issue opens up a whole 'nother can of worms and is also difficult to digest because of flawed reasoning.
When the facts are presented, I look at the presenter and wonder where he/she got them. Motives and reasons and out of the heart of men proceeds evil continously.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by LinearAq, posted 11-29-2004 4:58 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by kjsimons, posted 11-30-2004 8:28 AM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 86 by nator, posted 12-01-2004 7:58 AM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 88 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2004 8:22 AM PecosGeorge has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 66 of 113 (164079)
11-30-2004 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Morte
11-29-2004 5:18 PM


Re: What makes you think that?
They choose to believe that something may come from nothing, and choose to believe that despite the "evidence" that human reasoning and rationale and the human mind are evil continuously, they'd rather trust on such a premise. The blind lead the blind effectively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Morte, posted 11-29-2004 5:18 PM Morte has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 10:05 AM PecosGeorge has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 67 of 113 (164081)
11-30-2004 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by PecosGeorge
11-30-2004 8:18 AM


Re: What makes you think that?
quote:
How people can believe that something may be had from nothing is my wonder question.
I don't believe that something came from nothing. As far as I know matter has always existed and the big bang was just the latest universe creation event. You say god created everything and who knows, maybe he did, there is no proof. But who then created god? The typical answer is that "god has always existed". That is really no different than my thought that matter may have always existed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-30-2004 8:18 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 11-30-2004 9:28 AM kjsimons has not replied
 Message 71 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-30-2004 12:04 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 113 (164092)
11-30-2004 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by kjsimons
11-30-2004 8:28 AM


Re: What makes you think that?
kj writes:
That is really no different than my thought that matter may have always existed.
Which has always existed? Intelligence or matter? Did matter evolve into intelligence or was intelligence the Creator In the Beginning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by kjsimons, posted 11-30-2004 8:28 AM kjsimons has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 113 (164093)
11-30-2004 9:32 AM


Back towards the topic folk!
We are straying further and further afield. Let's head back towards the question of whether or not belief can be a choice.

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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 70 of 113 (164098)
11-30-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by PecosGeorge
11-30-2004 8:25 AM


Re: What makes you think that?
PecosGeorge writes:
They choose to believe that something may come from nothing, and choose to believe that despite the "evidence" that human reasoning and rationale and the human mind are evil continuously, they'd rather trust on such a premise. The blind lead the blind effectively.
This is confusing!!
What "evidence" tells us that human reasoning and rationale and the human mind are evil continuously? How did you evaluate that evidence? Certainly not with that evil mind of yours.
Then you don't use reasoning and rationale to determine what religion to believe in?
Or is it just "human" reasoning and rationale that you cannot trust? If so, how do you tap in to this non-human reasoning and, more importantly, how do you know it is trustworthy, seeing as you can't use your own evil reasoning and mind to figure that out?
(A little off topic)If human reasoning and rationale and the human mind are evil continuously:
1. Why are athiests statistically the most likely to be law-abiding citizens? This assumes you believe that God is helping you overcome your evil mind. Forgive me if I made a bad assumption.
2. How do you know you are not being fooled into believing the wrong religion, by your evil mind? Perhaps the Buddists are right but your vision is clouded.

I guess Deuteronomy 23:1 isn't funny enough....looking for something else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-30-2004 8:25 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-30-2004 12:13 PM LinearAq has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 71 of 113 (164120)
11-30-2004 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by kjsimons
11-30-2004 8:28 AM


Re: What makes you think that?
So far as you know is indicative.
But, please believe as you choose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by kjsimons, posted 11-30-2004 8:28 AM kjsimons has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 72 of 113 (164121)
11-30-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by LinearAq
11-30-2004 10:05 AM


Re: What makes you think that?
my evil mind notices that we are not getting anywhere other than round and round. i'm world-famous for not engaging in circular discussion.
I allow my seven-year-old grandson a number of 'yeah-but's', adults on the other hand - well, let's just say I've figured it out for myself and hope you will, too.
It's clearly not easy. Please let that comfort you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 10:05 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 12:50 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 73 of 113 (164123)
11-30-2004 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PecosGeorge
11-30-2004 12:13 PM


Hint taken
PecosGeorge writes:
I allow my seven-year-old grandson a number of 'yeah-but's', adults on the other hand -
I think you are dismissing me and my inquiries as not worth your time. Accepted if not agreed to.
I did not feel that it was a series of "yeah-buts". You introduced new data and I just questioned you about it. I thought that is what we do in a debate forum. Do I need to go to Boot Camp?
I did not feel the conversation was circular because the discussions were not about the same things and each offshoot could be used to clarify the main topic.
It is obvious from post #29 that your opinion on belief is that you use evidence of some type to reason out your belief. Since the apostle Paul reasoned with rabbi's (Acts...somewhere) I feel that this is a justifiable course to take. It just makes my point...that it is difficult/improbable for some people to believe because of how they are constructed or raised which provides their preconceived notions about everything. Ex: Grandpa says God is real. I'm only seven. Grandpa is the greatest thing since sliced bread. So, what he says is right, God is real.
Regardless, don't limit your grandson's yeah-but's too much. That's what grandpa's are made for...to answer the silly questions that the parents are too busy/harried/immature to deal with. I hope you are enjoying all the time you have with him.

I guess Deuteronomy 23:1 isn't funny enough....looking for something else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-30-2004 12:13 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by PecosGeorge, posted 11-30-2004 1:26 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 113 (164126)
11-30-2004 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LinearAq
11-22-2004 11:16 AM


A different take
LinearAq writes:
I cannot choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, no matter how hard I try.
This statement would be true to me as well but then I have to ask myself - "why do I believe that 2 + 2 = 4?" This leads to googling proofs for why '1 + 1 = 2' and that leads to headaches from trying to recall my higher math skills that have been left dormant too long.
The easy explanation of why 2 + 2 = 4, is that in a base 10 number system we have labeled a certain number of objects that have a value of 2 and a certain number of objects that have a value of 4. We see when we put a pair of objects labeled 2 together they are identical to the objects labeled 4. In our current numbering concept, it is true that 2 + 2 = 4. However, what if our concept and labeling were different and 5 was the label given to the same number of objects that we currently call 4?
We'd certainly be talking about the same number of objects no matter what we labeled them, no? But in the concept where the numbers look like:
quote:
1 2 3 5 4 6 7 8 9
2 + 2 = 5 is true and I would "believe" it.
Ok, now I've gotten myself confused...
Anyway, back on topic. I only choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 4 because that is how our current concept of base 10 addition has labeled the sum of 2 + 2. I can certainly be shown two sets of two objects and see that they make four objects but why can't I call the sum 'FRED'? Do we have math truths just because we have defined them that way?
thanx
PM1K

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LinearAq, posted 11-22-2004 11:16 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 75 of 113 (164127)
11-30-2004 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by LinearAq
11-30-2004 12:50 PM


Re: Hint taken
now I feel like a jerk
sorry, really I am. I have encountered many 'yeah but's' here and they are tiring, because it is all so very plain to me, which makes it so difficult to detour or wander alongside someone else's path, as it seems difficult for you to come along where I am at this time. It is as it should be and is not meant to be arrogant.
This setting is also not conducive to discussion of matters of such vital import. So many restrictions apply. If you were here or i were there, an eye to eye would be very rewarding.
The evidence I use for belief is not to be explained, since it is not evidence that may be measured by a yardstick or has value you may add on your fingers, etc. There is a strong presence in me that tells me to believe. this is laughable to those who don't have this experience and don't believe.
My recommendation to you, and I mean that in Christian love.
Do away with everything except that which outlines the plan of salvation and leads you along the path to it. What must I do to be saved?
Struggling with side orders may be interesting and good entertainment, but can lead you off the narrow onto a path where you do not belong, where vexetion and perplexity reign.
And last, please forgive me for being intolerant. I should really not be here, time constraints, medium constraints, and so, not very good excuses, but true.
My grandson has the best I have to offer and gathered over time. I won't be here forever, therefore, be self-sufficient, search for answers on your own, it is by far more rewarding that way. For as long as possible, I'm here to nod approval.
Again, pardon me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by LinearAq, posted 11-30-2004 12:50 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-01-2004 3:11 AM PecosGeorge has replied

  
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