Belief...a choice?

Phatboy,

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Some scientific minds have an uncanny discipline that suspends all connections with feelings so as not to bias their conclusions. I, however, take my feelings into account.

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And this biases your conclusions, right? You consider it a virtue to be able to conclude whatever you "feel" is true, regardless of the amount of evidence that indicates you're mistaken.I agree, your personal experience being abducted by aliens would have to count as evidence, at least to you. However, by any objective estimation, your belief in God is based on a lot less empirical evidence than that. You'll point to, I dunno, prophetic scripture and supposed miracles as evidence for your belief. But the only reason you accept those things is the fact that you want to validate your faith.regards,
Esteban Hambre

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You'll point to, I dunno, prophetic scripture and supposed miracles as evidence for your belief. But the only reason you accept those things is the fact that you want to validate your faith.

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Of course you realize that this leaves it open for them to say, "The only reason you deny those things is that fact that you want to deny God." Just as I think one is imagining or adding extra meaning to specific events, he might think I'm going out of my way to show that the event could have been falsely perceived and that the evidence is clearly in front of him.Sorry, just had a Devils Advocate, a little game of role reversal moment.

The problem here is that you're comparing something like 2+2=4 with the existence of God or the big bang. 2+2=4 is empirical verifiable data, God and the big bang arent. So you CHOOSE to believe in either God or the big bang by the way you interpret the different pieces of clues found in nature.

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Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

2+2 is based on mathematics, it is more by definition than "emperical".God and the BB are very different. We may both agree on sets of data that we can both observe that are, perhaps, supporting of the idea of a god or the BB.Then we need an idea of what could explain the observed data. That is where the idea of a god and the BB become very, very different. The god idea never proves to be checkable in anyway, it never leads to any further ideas to investigate, it never makes predictions that are different and separate it from alternative explanations.The BB idea makes various predictions about what we should see if we research, it allows for ways of showing it to be wrong and it has undergone modification when it shows itself wrong. It made predictions that separated it from the steady state theory.The two ideas for explaning things in the natural world are very different indeed. Though neither are particularly comparable to 2+2.If someone wishes to question or disagree with the god idea there seems to be no way to determine who is right or wrong. That is why centuries go by with different groups making different assertions about the nature of the god and with no resolution.With any ideas that are, like the BB, scientific there is a way to determine which are right (or at least the best available) and which are clearly wrong. That is why, though it might take a long time, we do settle arguments in science. The BB and steady state ideas being an example of that.

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So, the writers of the Bible decided that in order to add a measure of control over the population, that they had to define belief as a choice? Or...are you saying that belief as a choice is a recent invention of the Christian church?

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I seriously doubt the writers of the bible thought that way at all. IMO it lies in the bourgeois moralism of 18th century christianity, and the rise of Protestantism and its emphasis on personal responsibility and the manifest favour of god.

I mentioned Paul and the Ethiopian to show a state of readiness when their 'time' came. A long time ago, someone quoted a simple Bible truth to me, and I knew instantly that this is true even tho I had never given it any thought before. What I don't know and cannot describe, either in myself or the two examples I cited, is how long had the Spirit of God been preparing me for this very moment. It was sudden for me, certainly. It was sudden for Paul, the Ethiopian's decision to be baptized may fall under suddenness.
So far as chosen vs. gained? I do not see a difference, and refrain from over-analyzing matter to a state of perplexity sometimes irreversible.
Two plus two makes five may be worked out to a point where it is correct. And if what you believe does not make you happy, what's the point?
I can tell that you wish to delve deeply into the mystery. May I suggest you let this mystery come to you, because it knows how much you can handle at any given time and will not overload the circuits.
Tohido, good peace to you.

Your essay is eloquent, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.When you sit down to dinner, you eat your food one bite at a time. May I suggest that this is also how you approach the word of God, one bite at a time, chew it slowly, digest it, then bite off more, and build on what you have already eaten. Go steady and don't digress. It takes time to get to the dessert, which for me was 'oh, so that is how it works'. And the simplicity of how it works is stunning.
I hope you don't mind that I have said this to you.

Is it either/or? Why can't God have caused the Big Bang, a la portions of "The Case for a Creator"? Besides, you say we choose to believe. Ok...why did you choose to believe as you do? Does this mean that spiritual belief is different than natural belief? I won't be able to believe until the [Holy?] Spirit prepares me? Even so, all that seems to mean is that the Spirit "opens my eyes" to the evidence that I was interpreting wrongly. Still, then I would be believing due to the Spirit's influence. From that the only choice I would have is whether I will follow God (Jesus) or not. Again, I did not choose to believe in God, the choice was made for me. George, this next remark reflects my frustration with Bible Study and not with your expression of your convictions. I have studied slowly and for quite a long time. This has only confused me and led to questions that noone in my church thinks I should even ask. They certainly make no effort to provide an answer except "pray about it" or "you just need to believe it". Sorry folks, my mind doesn't work that way. Additionally, I am sure that the God described by the "believers" should know this and be able to provide me with the information or perception that I need to "believe". He is omnipotent, right? If He can be bothered to help someone find their keys then He certainly can be interested enough in my soul to help me believe.Sorry for the rant.I still see no examples of actual choice in belief.Edited because I don't know how to underline.Edited again because I can't spell without MS Word.This message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-24-2004 09:19 AMThis message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-24-2004 09:26 AM

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"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Fantastic. You are definitely headed in the right direction. If GOD exists and gave you a mind he certainly expected you to use the sucker. Hell, except for the wrapping it's the biggest organ in your body.So are there instances when you can choose to believe?IMHO, yes.As with anything, most folk look at the available evidence for something and that evidence determines belief. Whether we are talking about miricles, spirits, orbits, evolution, the Exodus or any other subject, the preponderance of evidence determines belief.But it is also possible to make a conscious decision to ignore evidence. It is possible to say regardless of all the evidence that 2 + 2 = 4 I will believe that 2 + 2 = 5. You will be wrong, but you can hold that belief.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

-----But the only reason you accept those things is the fact that you want to validate your faith.-----I wonder if validation is the same as sharing. When the heart is full, the mouth runs over.
I fell in love once, my heart was so full, I needed to tell, and I told.
What I felt needed no validation, it needed telling.
Faith and belief are the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, Heb. 11:1. Empirical data? Does not work in this ballpark, because the game is not subject to it.

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"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

Spiritual belief and natural belief? I cannot go there with you, because I have never thought belief may be categorized this way.
The Spirit's influence is something you must want, a choice you make to have it, and you may have noticed (I hope) that the potency changes in the relationship, the intensity may become palpable in a sense. It's between you and him, and George cannot achieve what's on the road for you, it is your road. I see your struggle, I wish I could make it easy for you.
The following verse occurred to me as I read your words.
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor. 13:12. It was important to me to say it to you.I'm sad your church is treating you this way. I identify, because for many years I was known as the black sheep of the (church) family for precisely the reason that I asked questions they could not answer.
I found them on my own, and as a result, left them behind in the dust. I believe the most serious handicap a Christian can have is to confuse doctrine with what it actually says in the scriptures.
For instance......the Bible says that God only has immortality (1 Tim: 6:13-16). The logical conclusion is - we do not. The church says that the soul is immortal, which the Bible does not corroborate. Now it becomes your personal responsibility to find out what is true.Come let us reason together, is the invitation found in Isaiah 8:20, meaning you and God talk about it, slug it out, have screaming matches, fisticuffs, whining sessions, throw stuff, slam the door on exit, I've done all that with and to my father, Abba/Father, or closer even - Daddy.
I hope I am helping, sure don't wish to be a hindrance.
Strike out on your own, it is your salvation, and don't let those folks.......you know, trip you up.

There you go.
Beautiful.
Aslan is the only lion!

It seems that you are a christian PG. Did you choose your religion or was it an accident of birth, culture, or what? Could you change your belief to that of the Norse gods, the Greeks, the Egyptians, or whatnot? If not, why not? (just curious)

I chose what I believe, and yes I could change it, if I had a mind to do so.
The mythologies you cite do not appeal to me. I choose the God of the Bible, because he offers the best deal.Also, before you can make a choice, you must have one and that is where reason plays its trump.This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 11-24-2004 02:40 PM

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I choose the God of the Bible, because he offers the best deal.

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So if I were to make up a new religion that offered you heavens rewards without having to suffer or change your behavior, you might choose it instead of the big C?

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Also, before you can make a choice, you must have one and that is where reason plays its trump.

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Well over here in my world the only reasoned choice is not to believe in any religion (notice I did not say anything about god(s) ). To me where reason plays its trump, is when it says we have no evidence of god(s), either for or against.