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Author Topic:   A passion for music? Share it here
Volunteer
Junior Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 21
From: Tennessee
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 91 of 101 (441407)
12-17-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
10-20-2007 4:47 PM


Re: Re;Old School
You haven't gone back to my good old days. I remember a floor model radio in out living room. The whole family sat around listening to President Roosevelts' fire side chats and then tuning in to Bob Hope,Red Skelton,Burns and Allen, The Shadow, Nick Carter, The Lone Ranger and many other great programs. All the while hoping that a tube wouldn't blow before our favorite program was finished. Believe me a young imagination is much better than anything Hollywood can produce. In my minds eye, I had a vivid picture of The Lone Ranger and Silver. I could even see the Shadow and would hide under a blanket upon hearing "the shadow knows what lurks in the minds of men". I just wish kids of today could experience the wonders of making up your own games in the yard and playing with sticks,rocks,the kid next door and your faithful dog.
Sorry about rambling on, I'll stop now but you caused it with your comment. Thank you for jogging my memory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 4:47 PM ringo has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 92 of 101 (441455)
12-17-2007 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by crashfrog
12-16-2007 11:27 PM


Re: Shlomo
But those rythyms aren't really fundamentally new either. The sounds with the rythym would be new, but not the rythym. That's the problem with "fundamentally new", because it can't just be an extension or continuation of something, or a radically different way of doing something (imo).
That's why electric amplification would be the closest thing I can think of in music. Yes, it's a continuation of amplification (which is really all an instrument does), but does it radically new. All of a sudden, you don't need hollow tubes or boxes to amplify the sounds you're making.
I will settle for calling breakbeats new, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2007 11:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2007 6:54 PM kuresu has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 93 of 101 (441456)
12-17-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by kuresu
12-17-2007 6:52 PM


Re: Shlomo
But those rythyms aren't really fundamentally new either.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's the historic precedent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by kuresu, posted 12-17-2007 6:52 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by kuresu, posted 12-17-2007 7:27 PM crashfrog has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 94 of 101 (441467)
12-17-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by crashfrog
12-17-2007 6:54 PM


Re: Shlomo
jazz drumming?
funk drumming?
you said it yourself. The breakbeats came from people spinning lps on their turntables with a funk element. what would be interesting to hear would be older breakbeats, seeing as how that guy may not have even been born in the 70s when funk and jazz were being combined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2007 6:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2007 7:35 PM kuresu has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 95 of 101 (441469)
12-17-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by kuresu
12-17-2007 7:27 PM


Re: Shlomo
jazz drumming?
funk drumming?
Hrm, maybe you still don't understand what a breakbeat is. It's when you create the whole rhythm portion of a song from extemporaneous percussion solos as found in jazz and funk performances, sampled and cut.
Jazz and funk drumming are not breakbeat, not even close, so I don't see how they can be the historic precursors of breakbeat.
what would be interesting to hear would be older breakbeats
I guess you could start with "King of the Beats" by Mantronik, the first use of the so-called "Amen break" that is such a mainstay of breakbeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by kuresu, posted 12-17-2007 7:27 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by kuresu, posted 12-17-2007 10:32 PM crashfrog has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 96 of 101 (441522)
12-17-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by crashfrog
12-17-2007 7:35 PM


Re: Shlomo
Hello funk. That's what is sounds like to me, except they're using different instruments in some cases.
If the fundamentally new thing you're talking about is the rythym, there's your historical basis--funk.
But if it's the cutting and sampling you're talking about, that's essentially doing an arrangement (specifically playing several songs as one, where portions are only played. quite common with christmas music I've found), and those are quite old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2007 7:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2007 11:34 PM kuresu has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 97 of 101 (441530)
12-17-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by kuresu
12-17-2007 10:32 PM


Re: Shlomo
If the fundamentally new thing you're talking about is the rythym, there's your historical basis--funk.
Funk isn't breakbeats, though. How can it be the historic precedent?
Maybe I'm just not being clear on what I'm asking, because you're not making any sense to me. Anyway it was just an idle musing; we can drop it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by kuresu, posted 12-17-2007 10:32 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by kuresu, posted 12-18-2007 12:08 AM crashfrog has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 98 of 101 (441532)
12-18-2007 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by crashfrog
12-17-2007 11:34 PM


Re: Shlomo
Funk isn't breakbeats, though.
Well sure. Just like Romantic music is not Classical music, and just like jazz isn't blues. And yet Classical and blues are the historical precedents for Romantic music and jazz. Rythymically, funk would be the historical precedent for breakbeats.
I'm probably not getting what you're asking, because you're not making any sense to me. It's difficult for me to see how funk can't have influenced breakbeats.
ABE:
A quick perusal through the wiki article seems to suggest that funk is the basis for breakbeats. That's why rythymically, breakbeats have to come from funk, because those are essentially funk rythyms (yeah, that sounds pretty circular). It also seems as if hip-hop may have something to do with it in some vague way.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2007 11:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2007 12:28 AM kuresu has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 99 of 101 (441534)
12-18-2007 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Volunteer
12-17-2007 1:04 PM


Re: Re;Old School
I'm familiar with all of them in fact virtually all artists from the 50's & 60's. Ie The Chords, Penguins, 5 Satins, Flamingos, Turbans, Ivory Joe Hunter, Big Joe Turner, Wilbert Harrison, Johnnie Ray, Gene Chandler, Dee Dee Sharp, Hank Ballard & The Midnighters, Jimmie F Rogers, Etta James, Dion & The Belmonts, The Elegants To name a few more.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Volunteer, posted 12-17-2007 1:04 PM Volunteer has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 100 of 101 (441540)
12-18-2007 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by kuresu
12-18-2007 12:08 AM


Re: Shlomo
It's difficult for me to see how funk can't have influenced breakbeats.
Because funk is like the opposite of breakbeak. Funk percussion is a regular, rhythmic beat, and then in the middle of the song there's a couple measures of the "break", where the percussionist goes off-rhythm to solo.
Breakbeats is what you get if you take just that period of the break and make a whole song out of it. It's like making music out of the negative space that surrounds a funk song.
I'm not saying that there's no relationship, obviously there is. But breakbeats aren't the natural evolution of funk, the way funk evolved from other genres; they're a quantum leap across the musical space.
Without recent precedent, in my view. It's fine if you disagree. Although the thing you mentioned, about electronic amplification of vibrating strings, that was pretty significant, too. And I think we're on the cusp of a similar development, where digital instruments and games like Guitar Hero will usher in an age where people make music on instruments that are designed for easy human use, not forced into certain configurations by the necessities of generating musical sound with physical materials.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by kuresu, posted 12-18-2007 12:08 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by kuresu, posted 12-18-2007 1:07 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 101 of 101 (441546)
12-18-2007 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
12-18-2007 12:28 AM


Re: Shlomo
But funk drum solos do keep a rythmic pattern (not necessarily a strict 4/4 all the way through, but like 4/4 3/4 3/4 4/4 5/4 then repeat). They don't completely drop a rythym, which is what it sounds like you're saying by stating that they go off-rythym.
The breakbeats that I've heard definitely have a continuous rythym (if they didn't, rave wouldn't be so popular for dancing to). So what have they done? Put a solo on perpetual repeat? Or solos? If so, then the breakbeat essentially becomes what twelve bar blues is--a repetitive rythmic pattern.
Further, I hear the funk beat in the breakbeat songs (the few I've listened to, at any rate).
A new take on an old idea.
Digital instruments could be really quite freaky. That would be the next fundamental change in music, so I agree with you there. However, the only way to make a brass instrument easier to play would be to scrap the blowing part (exception--trombones). Getting rid of the need to blow would be a fundamental change for any wind instrument, though, so . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2007 12:28 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
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