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Author Topic:   Why should evolution be taught in public schools? (Another class project type topic)
NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 31 of 55 (440156)
12-11-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dani2008
12-11-2007 5:35 PM


wide acceptance
I understand that evolution is the most widely accepted theory...
Please reread what has been posted. It is the only theory offered! Any other ideas aren't well developed enough to be called something as advanced as a early hypothesis, in fact, they aren't far enough along to be called a decent speculation.
It is the only player in town not just the most anything-- only.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 32 of 55 (440166)
12-11-2007 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dani2008
12-11-2007 5:35 PM


Re: Other Side of the Story...
Hahaha... Jar's answer is most to the point, but I guess you are searching for more than that.
But first...
I understand that evolution is the most widely accepted theory and that it is the most relevant one for a science course. Thus being the reason for it being taught in biology courses.
I want you to understand that there is an even greater depth to it than "widely accepted", especially for biology. And this added depth, is why you've had people telling you there are no competing theories to evolution. It really is in all practical sense the only theory at this time which is viable.
As I mentioned, this is not just about biology. Evidence from pretty much all other fields have come to support the same theory. That is they are directly congruous with what it needs or what it predicts for what they will find. There is at this time, no other theory for species diversity which can claim support from any other field, nor have made accurate predictions consistent with findings in other fields.
Really, until another theory... past or present... accounts for evidence from all these other fields, as evolutionary theory does, there is nothing else to teach as an alternative. Just dead lines of inquiry from the past.
are there any valid reasons as to why evolution should not be taught in schools? Aside from the "violating freedom of relgion," reason.
First, I don't know how teaching evolution can be argued as violating freedom of religion. You are being taught what scientists use in their work, not what you must believe is "true". Unless someone's faith precludes them from understanding what scientists are using as models, that seems like an errant argument from the get go.
Second, the only reason I can think of for not teaching evolution is that a school doesn't have a biology program... or anthropology... or geology... or psychology... or maybe even history. Its a solid theory which links to many other fields. Once you let education of science enter the door, evolutionary theory is going to have to be let in as well. Its part of the body of modern science.
Oh wait, I suppose someone could just admit they don't like it and don't want it. That would be a reason, even if not a very good one.
{AbE: I wanted to add an analogy which might explain the sort of absurd feeling your question would have to a scientist. Can you think of a reason why we should not teach multiplication? The rest of math is fine, just no multiplication. Doesn't that question sound strange?)
Edited by Silent H, : AbE

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 55 (440169)
12-11-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Silent H
12-11-2007 6:26 PM


Re: Other Side of the Story...
You are being taught what scientists use in their work, not what you must believe is "true".
Heh. When we got to evolution in my AP Biology class in high school, the teacher was kind of surprised to find out that all five of us were creationists. But she just said that it wasn't for her to tell us what to believe, just that she had to teach us the current state of biological science, and that we were expected to understand it whether or not we accepted it. We were all cool with that.

If it's truly good and powerful, it deserves to engender a thousand misunderstandings. -- Ben Ratcliffe

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 34 of 55 (440176)
12-11-2007 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Chiroptera
12-11-2007 6:30 PM


Re: Other Side of the Story...
Of course that kinda shenanigans wouldn't pass muster over at that Woods Hole place, buncha heathens.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 55 (440212)
12-11-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dani2008
12-11-2007 1:48 PM


Many of us, the students, feel that if one theory is going to be taught then all the theories should be taught.
The first thing to do then is make a list of all the available theories, and then see if you can show that they are scientific theories bedded in the scientific process, not just WAGs or assertions of faith.
  • Darwin's theory of descent with modification
  • The modern synthesis of biological evolution
  • Gould & Eldredge's punctuated equilibrium
  • _____________
  • etc
    For the sake of comparison there are a number of scientific theories that have been invalidated (shown to be false) within evolutionary biology, and they can be used as examples to show that (a) they were based on evidence, (b) they had a testable theory, (c) when they were invalidated the false elements were discarded:
  • Lamarck's theory of acquired traits
  • Haeckel's recapitulation theory
  • etc
    Then you can discuss how many of these theories are discussed in class.
    Message 27
    However, what about the other side of the arguement: are there any valid reasons as to why evolution should not be taught in schools? Aside from the "violating freedom of relgion," reason.
    As has been pointed out already, avoiding truth is not a religious right.
    The arguments against teaching evolution are the same as they are for not teaching
    • math
    • logic
    • english
    • history
    • chemistry
    • physics
    • sex-ed
    • art
    • phys-ed
    • etc.
    The argument FOR ignorance ... now all we need is a good reason for ignorance ... (you didn't say it had to be a good reason).
    Enjoy.

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by Dani2008, posted 12-11-2007 1:48 PM Dani2008 has replied

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    Dani2008
    Junior Member (Idle past 5949 days)
    Posts: 10
    From: VA, USA
    Joined: 12-10-2007


    Message 36 of 55 (440321)
    12-12-2007 4:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
    12-11-2007 10:51 PM


    I fully understand what each and every one of you are saying. Evolution is the the only proven theory, it is a concept that must be taught, even if one's religion goes against it it is good and expected to understand, and everything else you said. However, I am writing a paper trying to disprove evolution in school. I understand it is hard to argue, but I still *have* to come up with three pages as to why *evolution should not be taught in class.* Thank you so much (all of you) for your help on the "evolution should be taught in schools," but now I need reasons for the other side. If any come to mind that be great
    Edited by Dani2008, : clarification

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    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22392
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.3


    Message 37 of 55 (440329)
    12-12-2007 4:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Dani2008
    12-12-2007 4:05 PM


    Dani2008 writes:
    Thank you so much (all of you) for your help on the "evolution should be taught in schools," but now I need reasons for the other side. If any come to mind that be great
    If you want reasons that are actually connected to reality and that aren't spurious, there aren't any. If you want reasons tied to a specific religious belief system, then it should be pretty obvious to you what those are.
    --Percy

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 38 of 55 (440335)
    12-12-2007 5:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Dani2008
    12-12-2007 4:05 PM


    Why Creation should be taught.
    Creation must be taught if children are to know the truth of this universe we live in.
    First, they are often beautiful and exotic stories. The image of Grandfather Raven, leaving the land of spirit to drop a pebble into the waters, that grew and expanded until all the lands became dry is important and something every child should know.
    They need to know that Izanagi and Izanami stirred the waters with great spears until the water evaporated leaving a pile of salt. Then they went down island of salt and combined, making lots of islands.
    Students need to know that when Mbombo felt the great pain in his belly, he vomited the sun and the stars and when he vomited again, he vomited the trees and the animals and fire.
    Damballah created all the waters and while in the form of a serpent, his many coils became the islands in the sea. He sometimes crawls through the sun and sheds his skin, which is the rainbow people see.
    In the beginning there was nothing but Ice and fire. In the north was Niflheim, the land of Mist and Ice, and in the south was Muspelheim, the land of fire. Sparks from Muspel are the stars and the sun. The sons of Muspel will one day break the bridge between the worlds signaling the end of all and time.
    These are important things that every serious student should know and need to be taught.

    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 39 of 55 (440336)
    12-12-2007 5:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Dani2008
    12-12-2007 4:05 PM


    Why Evolution should not be taught.
    This is particularly true in the US.
    A major component of the US economy is based on the continued funding of Christian Evangelists. One major part of this is the funding of those folk speaking out against evolution. If evolution was actually taught in the schools, the vast majority of students would realize that they had been lied to by those promoting Biblical Creationism. They might begin to wonder just how many other lies they had been told and actually start to question everything they had been taught about Biblical Christianity.
    As they discover that they had been lied to not just about creationism, but even the basics of Christianity, many may lose their faith, and others will see through the hypocrisy that is the televangelist stock in trade.
    At best that can only lead to many new atheists, but the real threat is that as kids learn in school and lose their ignorance, they may stop sending all that money to the televangelists.
    Evolution MUST be kept out of school. It is far to likely to lead kids to critical thinking and actually make them question the lies they are being taught.

    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by Dani2008, posted 12-12-2007 4:05 PM Dani2008 has replied

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    JB1740
    Member (Idle past 5945 days)
    Posts: 132
    From: Washington, DC, US
    Joined: 11-20-2007


    Message 40 of 55 (440338)
    12-12-2007 5:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by jar
    12-12-2007 5:29 PM


    Re: Why Evolution should not be taught.
    jar, I have to say, comment #39 is inspired. Bravo.

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    CK
    Member (Idle past 4128 days)
    Posts: 3221
    Joined: 07-04-2004


    Message 41 of 55 (440339)
    12-12-2007 5:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by jar
    12-12-2007 5:20 PM


    If the student only has 3 pages..
    I'd finish with,
    unfortunately I do not have the space to discuss the other 700 creation stories that we are fortunate to have on earth - however here is a list of the 50 I found before I had to go to bed. I certainly think that we should spend an hour on each of those in science class - however, to do so, we'd need to junk all those science stuff we currently do, cancel the holidays and extend class for three hours a day. I think it's worthwhile sacrifice to ensure that 'equal time' is observed.
    Edited by CK, : typos

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    Dani2008
    Junior Member (Idle past 5949 days)
    Posts: 10
    From: VA, USA
    Joined: 12-10-2007


    Message 42 of 55 (440340)
    12-12-2007 5:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by jar
    12-12-2007 5:29 PM


    Re: Why Evolution should not be taught.
    Jar: I think I understand what your getting at about the Raven and other Indian legends. I don't kow how to quote, but I think it was message 38.
    The funny thing is I was just working on my paper, and one of the things I said was that if creationism is going to be taught in schools then Indian Urban Legends should be as well. Thanks for the advice

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    Dani2008
    Junior Member (Idle past 5949 days)
    Posts: 10
    From: VA, USA
    Joined: 12-10-2007


    Message 43 of 55 (440341)
    12-12-2007 5:48 PM


    Immorality & Atheism: Evolution
    Can teaching evolution in publics schools influence atheism and immmorality. I found a another discussion board that said it did and I was just wondering about it...?

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 44 of 55 (440342)
    12-12-2007 6:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Dani2008
    12-12-2007 5:48 PM


    teaching evolution in publics schools can influence atheism and immmorality.
    Can teaching evolution in publics schools influence atheism and immmorality.
    Absolutely. One of the most important things about learning science, including studying evolution, is that it instills ethics. The Scientific Method includes an standard of ethics, for example you must consider and report both the data that supports your position as well as that which might refute it. You must operate in the open in an environment where each of you ideas is subject to being challenged and you must be ready to drop those ideas which do not stand up to peer review.
    There are few things that do a better job of teaching morality than Science.
    As to atheism, as pointed out back in Message 39, when Christians discover just how much they have been lied to, many will lose faith.

    Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

    This message is a reply to:
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    Silent H
    Member (Idle past 5819 days)
    Posts: 7405
    From: satellite of love
    Joined: 12-11-2002


    Message 45 of 55 (440351)
    12-12-2007 6:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Dani2008
    12-12-2007 5:48 PM


    Re: Immorality & Atheism: Evolution
    Might I ask who determined one is capable of writing three pages on why evolution shouldn't be taught? Had they tried this themselves, and were capable of producing that quantity?
    It seems to me expecting students to waste time on such a topic, which does not involve research, is itself somewhat immoral.
    So I guess teaching evolution does influence immorality. It makes some people with very little faith in their own religion, and morality, commit immoral acts on others.
    As far as effecting the morality of anyone else? Its a scientific theory and has no comment on our moral choices.
    I think Jar's explanations... both of them... are the only space consuming explanations one can give.
    Or you could do a budget for the school, and school system, and explain how much money could be saved cutting out biology. Then in turn how much could be saved cutting other science courses which support evolutionary theory, or are influenced by it. And then you can explain how this will help our nation by supplying people who lack adequate science education, and so only competitive for low wage jobs, as well as not being able to criticize what political leaders tell them is true.
    {AbE: Honestly, if you have the nuts for it, I'd love to hear what happens if you ask the teacher to produce three pages on that subject. And if (s)he can, post it here.}
    Edited by Silent H, : AbE

    h
    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

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