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Author Topic:   Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 182 (85631)
02-12-2004 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Silent H
02-11-2004 9:55 PM


You failed to answer my question.
No matter what I say I ALWAYS fail to answer your question, so what's new. I did answer your question and I'm geting tired of you continually alleging I don't answer. If you don't like my answers, go talk to somebody else.
*Why can't peaceful Muslims today who believe only in the Quran be viewed as similar to the Xians of the past, persecuted by the dominating RC church?
*If they can be, why are they not considered by you to be the true fundamentalists, since you consider true fundamentalist Xianity to be those that reject violence and appeals to commands from other than Jesus?*
1. They aren't being persecuted and killed by anybody.
2. Pacifist Muslims have not yet learned all the precepts of Mohammed and his desciples who authored the Sunnas. Nor have they yet learned to practice what these practiced, that of Jihad and fighting the infidel as well as punishing all heretics who wish to renounce Islam. Only the true fundies do as the prophet himself and his closest desciples practiced and taught.
You also dodged the question here. I asked you to give a more detailed explanation of what YOU feel the world should do with Muslims worldwide.
I TOLD YOU. GO BACK AND READ. I SAID THE WORLD SHOULD KEEP THEM AT BAY AS THEY'VE DONE FOR 14 CENTURIES. THEN I SAID LET THEM TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN. That's it. That's my answer to your question. Move on. I'm done answering that question. You're impossible to talk sense with, Holmes!
Your original answer was do what Israel has done, which suggests ghetto, disenfranchisement, and extermination. I assume you did not mean that and so I would like a better breakdown.
SPIN, SPIN, SPIN. If Israel didn't hold them at bay as I said, Israel would be driven into the sea decades ago. Get real!!
*Could you please give a brief detailed overview of what you think should be done with Muslims worldwide?*
NO!
If I am not supposed to accept that from Muslims, why am I supposed to accept that from you? Why can't you answer my questions straight? You say you have given me the facts already but you have yet to answer my very direct questions.
Please go talk to somebody else. I'm weary of your spin jobs and whining about my responses.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Silent H, posted 02-11-2004 9:55 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Silent H, posted 02-12-2004 12:48 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 139 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-12-2004 2:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 137 of 182 (85637)
02-12-2004 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Buzsaw
02-12-2004 12:07 AM


quote:
1. They aren't being persecuted and killed by anybody.
They were persecuted by Xian's in Serbia. Did you here of Slobodan Milosevic? Kosovo? They were persecuted by Russians in Chechnya. Remember when we criticized the Soviet Union for oppressing them? They were persecuted by Russians. remember when we helped empower the mujahadeen and eventually Al-Queda to fight them?
They were also attacked by Xian and Jewish extremists in palestininian territories.
In fact a high ranking member of the Jewish Defense League (in the US) was convicted of attacking mosques and planning on killing a US senator.
quote:
2. Pacifist Muslims have not yet learned all the precepts of Mohammed
Fine. If you are going to continue telling Muslims how they MUST practice their religion, when they tell you they don't have to, from now on I will simply consider you a Xian that hasn't learned the RC church is infallible yet. It is that hypocritical.
quote:
I SAID THE WORLD SHOULD KEEP THEM AT BAY AS THEY'VE DONE FOR 14 CENTURIES. THEN I SAID LET THEM TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN.
That is like saying you want to end world hunger by feeding everyone... what the hell does that mean? You have to set out some points or its meaningless.
quote:
Israel would be driven into the sea decades ago.
This has nothing to do with anything I said. But if you want to address Israel, why not answer my question of the US granting them territory to form their nation here? I still think that's a good idea, and personally I wouldn't mind having them around. At least the body count would go wayyyyyyy down.
quote:
Please go talk to somebody else. I'm weary of your spin jobs and whining about my responses.
NO!
(at least not as long as you post fallacies and bigotry. they will always be called into question as long as I am here. If you refuse to answer that will merely act as evidence that your assertions are just that.)
On the lighter side I hope you noticed I started a thread with an article that appears to support your own claim about the possibility of demons (in the FFA area). I'm not arguing against you at all there, and the link is to a Reuters article so you get a bit more prestige. You might want to check it out and see if you can dig up anything else that might support it.
[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-12-2004]

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2004 12:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2004 11:51 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 138 of 182 (85639)
02-12-2004 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Buzsaw
02-11-2004 11:39 PM


I like many Xians. I have always held an immense respect for the Amish in particular, as well as movements like those espoused by Truthlover.
In fact, I have an immense respect for TL and his community. It sounds fantastic.
You like to SPIN SPIN SPIN that I hate Xians in order to discredit my arguments, but it simply does not hold water.
The irony comes in that I have faced most of my opposition in quoting Jesus, from evangelicals who ended up quoting Moses and Paul's support of leviticus back at me to undercut his teachings. That gave me a very critical outlook on evangelical organizations.
I am an honest critic buz, and do come to its defense when it is unfairly attacked (as for example in a newly opened thread which called religion evil).

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2004 11:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 182 (85659)
02-12-2004 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Buzsaw
02-12-2004 12:07 AM


quote:
2. Pacifist Muslims have not yet learned all the precepts of Mohammed and his desciples who authored the Sunnas. Nor have they yet learned to practice what these practiced, that of Jihad and fighting the infidel as well as punishing all heretics who wish to renounce Islam. Only the true fundies do as the prophet himself and his closest desciples practiced and taught.
Who are you to say who's the real Muslim and who's not? I have said over and over again that The Qur'an takes precedence over the Sunnah, and anything in the Sunnah that contradicts the message of the Qur'an gets abrogated. Non-defensive violence and killing without a reason is included.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2004 12:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 182 (85960)
02-12-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Andya Primanda
02-12-2004 2:17 AM


Who are you to say who's the real Muslim and who's not? I have said over and over again that The Qur'an takes precedence over the Sunnah, and anything in the Sunnah that contradicts the message of the Qur'an gets abrogated. Non-defensive violence and killing without a reason is included.
But relatively speaking, there's very little in the Precept Sunnas that do contradict the Quran, or the living example of the prophet Mohammed who wrote it including offensive violence. Your phrase "without a reason" is very relative and the sky's the limit as to what situations it can apply to, as the prophet himself often demonstrated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-12-2004 2:17 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Silent H, posted 02-13-2004 12:24 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 182 (85962)
02-12-2004 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Silent H
02-12-2004 12:48 AM


They were persecuted by Xian's in Serbia. Did you here of Slobodan Milosevic? Kosovo? They were persecuted by Russians in Chechnya. Remember when we criticized the Soviet Union for oppressing them? They were persecuted by Russians. remember when we helped empower the mujahadeen and eventually Al-Queda to fight them?
These were wars which have been waging for centuries. And who did the US support? The Muslims. Now who's being persecuted? The Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Silent H, posted 02-12-2004 12:48 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Silent H, posted 02-13-2004 12:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 142 of 182 (85971)
02-13-2004 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Buzsaw
02-12-2004 11:51 PM


quote:
These were wars which have been waging for centuries. And who did the US support? The Muslims.
1) Chechnya and Afghanistan were not being fought for centuries.
2) Whether they were or not, and if the US supported them does not alter the fact that Muslims have been persecuted... and still get persecuted.
quote:
Now who's being persecuted? The Christians.
3) What a tiny world you live in Buz. Jews, pagans, buddhists, hindus, muslims, and atheists were killed during 9-11. All of these groups continue to be targeted by the militant Islamic groups right along with Xians. And of course militant factions of these other groups continue to persecute everyone else.
One of the biggest dangers in the world today is without question the radical Islamic militant organizations which have gained a lot of power. However, it would be a mistake to lump all muslims in with these people.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2004 11:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 143 of 182 (85972)
02-13-2004 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
02-12-2004 11:46 PM


quote:
Your phrase "without a reason" is very relative and the sky's the limit as to what situations it can apply to, as the prophet himself often demonstrated.
It is not relative at all. You have only shown one passage in the Quran that condones the persecution of people with other faiths. It is clearly set within limits of time and place and states it is because in that time and place the people he was being allowed to attack had attacked him first.
You have also been provided NUMEROUS passages from the Quran that state specifically how people of other faiths must be treated.
Why have you NEVER addressed these very clear statements? How can you not see that many Muslims view those clear commands as the overriding principles?
And you keep bringing up the practices of the prohet which means the sunna, which you've already been told are not that important to all Muslims (at least not enough to trump the Word of God).

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2004 11:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2004 10:28 PM Silent H has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 182 (92137)
03-12-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Silent H
02-13-2004 12:24 AM


And you keep bringing up the practices of the prohet which means the sunna, which you've already been told are not that important to all Muslims (at least not enough to trump the Word of God).
From the history of Islam beginning with the actions of the prophet himself, to the early history of Islam under the watch of the early descendends and friends of the prophet all the way to the endless supply of cowardly Islamic terrorists today who destroy the lives of innocent defenseless victims today, it is very evident that the sunnas, violent Jehad, etc are every bit as important to Islam as the Quran. The prophet in the Quran made clear statements that Islam was to dominate the entire planet, no matter what it takes.
With the help of apologists for Islam like so many of you here on these forums as well as the massive ignorance in the West that this is a peaceful religion this world conquest envisioned by Mohammed will be easily achieved and is on the fast track with Islam being the world's fastest growing religion in spite of all the global terrorism being accomplished by the truly devout. As I understand the Biblical prophecies, Islam will become the dominating beast power of the planet for the latter days preceeding the 2nd advent of the true messiah, Jesus and Armageddon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Silent H, posted 02-13-2004 12:24 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Silent H, posted 03-13-2004 1:07 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 145 of 182 (92159)
03-13-2004 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
03-12-2004 10:28 PM


quote:
The prophet in the Quran made clear statements that Islam was to dominate the entire planet, no matter what it takes.
This makes you an out and out liar buz. The most you have ever shown is one statement taken out of context to make your point. In return more than one of us have shown that ONE statement when placed in context is not a call for destruction of all other religions.
In addition, we have shown you several other passages which directly contradict your assertion.
Whether there are many people who have decided to use the sunna to contradict the word of God is not under question. These are without question the people which have used Islam as a cloak for their personal ambitions through use of violence, or are vulnerable to use by such leaders.
What is under question is if a person can be a muslim and just use the Quran, which is the stated word of God, and not allow any other teachings or practices to counter it? In other words can there be peaceful denominations of Islam? The answer is YES.
To believe otherwise is to make a statement equal to all denominations of Xianity must really be Catholic.
I will also add that those muslims that do accept the sunna are also not as bloodthirsty and oppressive of other religions as you claim. You are painting many varities of people with one color and that is not fair.
You may remember I discussed a pagan friend living among shiites and facing no problems. I can now discuss more about that friend. She was a pagan living with caretakers of a shiite mosque in Iraq (while shooting a documentary). Yes she was open about it and they never gave her any problems. Amusingly, she also found many other religions around the area including a temple to Shaitan! Hmmmmmm. Seems you are full of shit buz.
Isn't there something about bearing false witness in your religion?
quote:
As I understand the Biblical prophecies, Islam will become the dominating beast power of the planet for the latter days preceeding the 2nd advent of the true messiah, Jesus and Armageddon.
So in other words, your God is behind the terrorist actions?
By the way I love every time you say this kind of thing, when the title of this thread (which you created) says there is some difference between fundie Xians and fundie Islam. The only difference I can see is that the Xians will kill more and win.
You guys are both screwed up.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2004 10:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2004 12:29 AM Silent H has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 182 (92656)
03-16-2004 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Silent H
03-13-2004 1:07 AM


This says it all, Holmes. Have a look.
Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah
By SHEIKH ABDULLAH BIN MUHAMMAD BIN HUMAID
http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Silent H, posted 03-13-2004 1:07 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Andya Primanda, posted 03-16-2004 1:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 148 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2004 2:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 150 by Silent H, posted 03-21-2004 12:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 182 (92667)
03-16-2004 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Buzsaw
03-16-2004 12:29 AM


I've just finished reading it. While I do not always agree with the author, I can agree with his point that Jihad, in terms of striving (violence included) is encouraged, against aggressors. Not on offensive. Anyone who promotes aggressive non-defensive jihad violates the Qur'an verse that stated that violence is only permitted against those who attack Muslims. And terrorist attacks to noncombatants, because they kill without reason, is in violation of the Qur'an verse that stated that killing is only lawful if for a cause, like criminal punishment or aggression against Muslims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2004 12:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 148 of 182 (92668)
03-16-2004 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Buzsaw
03-16-2004 12:29 AM


quote:
This says it all...
Are you seriously trying to imply that that one article, or that website is the one and only version of Islam?
So I can just link to a Vatican website and tell you that must be what you believe, because you are a Xian?
If your only point is that there are some muslims who think as this author suggests, and many of them are in the midEast and Indonesia in particular, then there's no argument from me. The problem is that is not all of them and you can't condemn all of Islam for a portion of them.
But what I find interesting is that you yet again have shown your willful ignorance and intent to spread lies about Islam.
Here is a link to the page where you found the link you listed. There are other links within that section. In them you will find quite contradictory messages. You will also find a link which describes that there are other denominations of Islam that do not fall under that particular author's version of Islam!
Here's a short list for those not wanting to go to the other page to jump to links. Also I've included more explanatory links from within one of the referenced sites...
Page Not Found -
http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/hijacking.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/suicidebomb.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/terrorviewpoint.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/swordspread.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/m6.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/m13.htm
Here's some links from elsewhere on the islamworld website...
Page Not Found
Young Muslims: 404 Page not found
The message throughout all of them is pretty consistent that the suicide bombings and hijackings, and pretty much everything we see Islamic militants doing are against the REAL Islam. There is also demands for religious tolerance, and no demand that other must be converted at the point of the sword... which of course has been the method of Xians for millenia.
How do you square these many other links against the one you found?
Again, you are a bigot and a liar buz, and you keep proving it with each post. It's very disappointing. You CAN be better than this.
[This message has been edited by holmes, 03-16-2004]

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2004 12:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Corkscrew
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 182 (92703)
03-16-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
12-25-2003 8:51 PM


Different versions of Koran
Scholars Are Quietly Offering New Theories of the Koran
By ALEXANDER STILLE
To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: "This book is not to be doubted," the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world.
Yet despite the fear, a handful of experts have been quietly investigating the origins of the Koran, offering radically new theories about the text's meaning and the rise of Islam.
Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of ancient Semitic languages in Germany, argues that the Koran has been misread and mistranslated for centuries. His work, based on the earliest copies of the Koran, maintains that parts of Islam's holy book are derived from pre-existing Christian Aramaic texts that were misinterpreted by later Islamic scholars who prepared the editions of the Koran commonly read today.
So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality "white raisins" of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.
Christoph Luxenberg, however, is a pseudonym, and his scholarly tome The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran had trouble finding a publisher, although it is considered a major new work by several leading scholars in the field. Verlag Das Arabische Buch in Berlin ultimately published the book.
The caution is not surprising. Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses received a fatwa because it appeared to mock Muhammad. The Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz was stabbed because one of his books was thought to be irreligious. And when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second-story window by his students at the University of Nablus in the West Bank. Even many broad-minded liberal Muslims become upset when the historical veracity and authenticity of the Koran is questioned.
The reverberations have affected non-Muslim scholars in Western countries. "Between fear and political correctness, it's not possible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam," said one scholar at an American university who asked not to be named, referring to the threatened violence as well as the widespread reluctance on United States college campuses to criticize other cultures.
While scriptural interpretation may seem like a remote and innocuous activity, close textual study of Jewish and Christian scripture played no small role in loosening the Church's domination on the intellectual and cultural life of Europe, and paving the way for unfettered secular thought. "The Muslims have the benefit of hindsight of the European experience, and they know very well that once you start questioning the holy scriptures, you don't know where it will stop," the scholar explained.
The touchiness about questioning the Koran predates the latest rise of Islamic militancy. As long ago as 1977, John Wansbrough of the School of Oriental and African Studies in London wrote that subjecting the Koran to "analysis by the instruments and techniques of biblical criticism is virtually unknown."
Mr. Wansbrough insisted that the text of the Koran appeared to be a composite of different voices or texts compiled over dozens if not hundreds of years. After all, scholars agree that there is no evidence of the Koran until 691 59 years after Muhammad's death when the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem was built, carrying several Koranic inscriptions.
These inscriptions differ to some degree from the version of the Koran that has been handed down through the centuries, suggesting, scholars say, that the Koran may have still been evolving in the last decade of the seventh century. Moreover, much of what we know as Islam the lives and sayings of the Prophet is based on texts from between 130 and 300 years after Muhammad's death.
In 1977 two other scholars from the School for Oriental and African Studies at London University Patricia Crone (a professor of history at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton) and Michael Cook (a professor of Near Eastern history at Princeton University) suggested a radically new approach in their book Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World.
Since there are no Arabic chronicles from the first century of Islam, the two looked at several non-Muslim, seventh-century accounts that suggested Muhammad was perceived not as the founder of a new religion but as a preacher in the Old Testament tradition, hailing the coming of a Messiah. Many of the early documents refer to the followers of Muhammad as "hagarenes," and the "tribe of Ishmael," in other words as descendants of Hagar, the servant girl that the Jewish patriarch Abraham used to father his son Ishmael.
In its earliest form, Ms. Crone and Mr. Cook argued, the followers of Muhammad may have seen themselves as retaking their place in the Holy Land alongside their Jewish cousins. (And many Jews appear to have welcomed the Arabs as liberators when they entered Jerusalem in 638.)
The idea that Jewish messianism animated the early followers of the Prophet is not widely accepted in the field, but "Hagarism" is credited with opening up the field. "Crone and Cook came up with some very interesting revisionist ideas," says Fred M. Donner of the University of Chicago and author of the recent book Narratives of Islamic Origins: The Beginnings of Islamic Historical Writing. "I think in trying to reconstruct what happened, they went off the deep end, but they were asking the right questions."
The revisionist school of early Islam has quietly picked up momentum in the last few years as historians began to apply rational standards of proof to this material.
Mr. Cook and Ms. Crone have revised some of their early hypotheses while sticking to others.
Mis-translated possibility:
Seventy-two dark-eyed virgins await in Paradise
"We were certainly wrong about quite a lot of things," Ms. Crone said. "But I stick to the basic point we made: that Islamic history did not arise as the classic tradition says it does."
Ms. Crone insists that the Koran and the Islamic tradition present a fundamental paradox. The Koran is a text soaked in monotheistic thinking, filled with stories and references to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Jesus, and yet the official history insists that Muhammad, an illiterate camel merchant, received the revelation in Mecca, a remote, sparsely populated part of Arabia, far from the centers of monotheistic thought, in an environment of idol-worshiping Arab Bedouins. Unless one accepts the idea of the angel Gabriel, Ms. Crone says, historians must somehow explain how all these monotheistic stories and ideas found their way into the Koran.
"There are only two possibilities," Ms. Crone said. "Either there had to be substantial numbers of Jews and Christians in Mecca or the Koran had to have been composed somewhere else."
Indeed, many scholars who are not revisionists agree that Islam must be placed back into the wider historical context of the religions of the Middle East rather than seeing it as the spontaneous product of the pristine Arabian desert. "I think there is increasing acceptance, even on the part of many Muslims, that Islam emerged out of the wider monotheistic soup of the Middle East," says Roy Mottahedeh, a professor of Islamic history at Harvard University.
Scholars like Mr. Luxenberg and Gerd- R. Puin, who teaches at Saarland University in Germany, have returned to the earliest known copies of the Koran in order to grasp what it says about the document's origins and composition. Mr. Luxenberg explains these copies are written without vowels and diacritical dots that modern Arabic uses to make it clear what letter is intended. In the eighth and ninth centuries, more than a century after the death of Muhammad, Islamic commentators added diacritical marks to clear up the ambiguities of the text, giving precise meanings to passages based on what they considered to be their proper context. Mr. Luxenberg's radical theory is that many of the text's difficulties can be clarified when it is seen as closely related to Aramaic, the language group of most Middle Eastern Jews and Christians at the time.
For example, the famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for "houri," which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means "white raisin."
Mr. Luxenberg has traced the passages dealing with paradise to a Christian text called Hymns of Paradise by a fourth-century author. Mr. Luxenberg said the word paradise was derived from the Aramaic word for garden and all the descriptions of paradise described it as a garden of flowing waters, abundant fruits and white raisins, a prized delicacy in the ancient Near East. In this context, white raisins, mentioned often as hur, Mr. Luxenberg said, makes more sense than a reward of sexual favors.
In many cases, the differences can be quite significant. Mr. Puin points out that in the early archaic copies of the Koran, it is impossible to distinguish between the words "to fight" and "to kill." In many cases, he said, Islamic exegetes added diacritical marks that yielded the harsher meaning, perhaps reflecting a period in which the Islamic Empire was often at war.
A return to the earliest Koran, Mr. Puin and others suggest, might lead to a more tolerant brand of Islam, as well as one that is more conscious of its close ties to both Judaism and Christianity.
"It is serious and exciting work," Ms. Crone said of Mr. Luxenberg's work. Jane McAuliffe, a professor of Islamic studies at Georgetown University, has asked Mr. Luxenberg to contribute an essay to the Encyclopedia of the Koran, which she is editing.
Mr. Puin would love to see a "critical edition" of the Koran produced, one based on recent philological work, but, he says, "the word critical is misunderstood in the Islamic world it is seen as criticizing or attacking the text."
Some Muslim authors have begun to publish skeptical, revisionist work on the Koran as well. Several new volumes of revisionist scholarship, The Origins of the Koran, and The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, have been edited by a former Muslim who writes under the pen name Ibn Warraq. Mr. Warraq, who heads a group called the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society, makes no bones about having a political agenda.
The actual reward in paradise: White raisins
"Biblical scholarship has made people less dogmatic, more open," he said, "and I hope that happens to Muslim society as well."
But many Muslims find the tone and claims of revisionism offensive. "I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Koran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later," says Ebrahim Moosa, a professor of religious studies at Duke University, as well as a Muslim cleric whose liberal theological leanings earned him the animosity of fundamentalists in South Africa, which he left after his house was firebombed.
Andrew Rippin, an Islamicist at the University of Victoria in British Columbia, Canada, says that freedom of speech in the Islamic world is more likely to evolve from within the Islamic interpretative tradition than from outside attacks on it. Approaches to the Koran that are now branded as heretical interpreting the text metaphorically rather than literally were widely practiced in mainstream Islam a thousand years ago.
"When I teach the history of the interpretation it is eye-opening to students the amount of independent thought and diversity of interpretation that existed in the early centuries of Islam," Mr. Rippin says. "It was only in more recent centuries that there was a need for limiting interpretation."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 12-25-2003 8:51 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Buzsaw, posted 03-22-2004 6:21 PM Corkscrew has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 150 of 182 (93654)
03-21-2004 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Buzsaw
03-16-2004 12:29 AM


quote:
This says it all
If that says it all, then what is this? It appears that there is such a thing as MODERATE Islam, and that these strange people you claim can't exist just chose to take an entire country back from militant Islamic leaders and live in peace with the other religions of that nation.
Thank the Gods they didn't listen to you about what they had to believe.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2004 12:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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