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Author Topic:   rat mothers
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 271 of 292 (310508)
05-09-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Modulous
05-09-2006 12:59 PM


Re: Offspring infanticide by mothers abounds...
...Or if she feeds one of the kids to the other two

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2006 12:59 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2006 1:11 PM EZscience has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 272 of 292 (310509)
05-09-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by EZscience
05-09-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Offspring infanticide by mothers abounds...
...Or if she feeds one of the kids to the other two

Well it works, but it might be less efficient
...could it be, is thermodynamics tangentially on topic??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by EZscience, posted 05-09-2006 1:08 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by EZscience, posted 05-09-2006 1:24 PM Modulous has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 273 of 292 (310514)
05-09-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Modulous
05-09-2006 1:11 PM


Re: Offspring infanticide by mothers abounds...
Yes, I know it seems inefficient, give the loss of energy through double assimilation processes, but let's look at the ecological context in which this behavior usually occurs.
When an eagle mother starts out with a brood of 2 chicks feeding both of them, food is abundant early in the season with no way to say how good the supply will be later when the chicks are larger. So the smaller, weaker one represents a store of food for the older one for later, in case its needed. (In some species the siblicide is facultative - only if needed - in others it is obligate). There is no other way for the mother to store food for later in the season except by temporarily turnign it into a chick. This is called the 'icebox hypothesis', orgiinally proposed by Alexander in 1974 (Ann. Rev. Ecol. System. 5:325-383 - if you're interested).
Another example from insects. Most lady beetle mothers lay eggs in clusters so that some eggs serve as food for the first larvae to hatch. That way, their survival is improved when they have to go forth and seek out their first prey (aphids). If mom wanted to prevent this sibling cannibalism, all she would have to do is lay eggs singly - but she doesn't. In terms of theory, she is acting to maximize her minimum fitness (reducing her chance no offspring will survive), as opposed to shooting for maximum fitness (trying to get all eggs to survive).

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 274 of 292 (310555)
05-09-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by macaroniandcheese
05-08-2006 2:20 PM


Re: wrap up
if you didn't get all the information it is your failing. the information has been out there. immaterial. just because you wish you hadn't made that decision is not a reason to outlaw.
It was only going through it that makes you realize it is wrong. Of course I examined the information that was "out there".
Like having a child. People with kids try to explain to people without kids what it is like, but there is no way to know unless you actually experience it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-08-2006 2:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-09-2006 4:43 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 277 by nator, posted 05-09-2006 9:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 275 of 292 (310557)
05-09-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by EZscience
05-09-2006 7:21 AM


Re: Offspring infanticide by mothers abounds...
Gee, I wonder if any of the animals read the article and had something to say about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by EZscience, posted 05-09-2006 7:21 AM EZscience has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 276 of 292 (310559)
05-09-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by riVeRraT
05-09-2006 4:36 PM


Re: wrap up
It was only going through it that makes you realize it is wrong.
wrong for you. there are people who have gone through it and realized that it is not wrong. it is difficult, yes. it is regrettable, perhaps. is it wrong? no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by riVeRraT, posted 05-09-2006 4:36 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 277 of 292 (310612)
05-09-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by riVeRraT
05-09-2006 4:36 PM


Re: wrap up
quote:
It was only going through it that makes you realize it is wrong. Of course I examined the information that was "out there".
You couldn't have, if what you told me was true.
You said that you were ignorant of adoption, and that you never even thought of it as an option.
Surely adoption was mentioned in the materials you reviewed regarding your various choices?
quote:
Like having a child. People with kids try to explain to people without kids what it is like, but there is no way to know unless you actually experience it.
Yeah, you don't see people who regret having kids trying to legislate other people from having them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by riVeRraT, posted 05-09-2006 4:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by riVeRraT, posted 05-09-2006 10:55 PM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 278 of 292 (310630)
05-09-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by nator
05-09-2006 9:10 PM


Re: wrap up
I was not ignorant of adoption. It wasn't an option, when you do not want to bear a child at all.
Surely adoption was mentioned in the materials you reviewed regarding your various choices?
No "material" was given to us, no consuling either. Just set up an appointment, walk in, rip it out, have a nice day, see ya.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by nator, posted 05-09-2006 9:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by nator, posted 05-10-2006 6:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 279 of 292 (310818)
05-10-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by riVeRraT
05-09-2006 10:55 PM


Re: wrap up
quote:
I was not ignorant of adoption. It wasn't an option, when you do not want to bear a child at all.
Yes, if you make the choice that you do not want to bear a child at all, then a safe and legal abortion is available to you.
Adoption was an option that you rejected because you and your girlfriend didn't want to carry the pregnancy to term.
But it was, most assuredly, an option. You rejected it as not the best choice for you at the time.
As you were not ignorant of it, it was an option you could have chosen, regardless of how quickly you rejected it.
YOU are the one that took adoption off of the table.
Just because abortion is legal didn't make adoption LESS of a viable choice for you.
Surely adoption was mentioned in the materials you reviewed regarding your various choices?
quote:
No "material" was given to us, no consuling either.
Did you seek any out, because goodness knows there are PLENTY of adoption agencies listed in the phone book.
And didn't you just write that you "examined the information that was out there"? Which is it? Did you inform yourself or didn't you?
Clearly, based upon what you've said, you were pretty determined to obtain the abortion, even though you were completely and fully aware that you could have either given the baby up for adoption once it was born, or kept it to raise yourself.
So, that's what you did.
quote:
Just set up an appointment, walk in, rip it out, have a nice day, see ya.
Yeah, it's really bad when health care professionals assume that the women seeking abortions are responsible adults, able to make sound, informed decisions all on their own.
From the sounds of it, you were quite uninterested in any other option besides an abortion and "set up an appointment, walk in, rip it out, have a nice day, see ya" is exactly what YOUR attitude seems to have been regarding the abortion.
Funny that none of us who support abortion rights think of it that way at all.
Look riverrat, for this entire thread you have repeatedly whined about how the culture, the people who made abortion legal, and anyone and everything else is to blame for your choice to get an abortion.
All that you've said leads me to believe that you want the culture to be your parent.
Well, it isn't. Not in a democratic society, anyway. You are an adult, and you have to make your own decisions as an adult, not as a child looking to avoid responsibility at every turn.
AbE: Just because you apparently have a great deal of trouble making moral or ethical decisions for yourself without having some outside entity tell you what you can and cannot do doesn't mean that everyone else needs our culture to restrict our choices as narrowly as you seem to wish it would.
You made a decision. It was one you clearly regret at this time.
Grow up and deal with it.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-10-2006 07:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by riVeRraT, posted 05-09-2006 10:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:31 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 280 of 292 (310972)
05-11-2006 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by nator
05-10-2006 6:04 PM


Re: wrap up
Funny that none of us who support abortion rights think of it that way at all.
I don't think that way either. Otherwise I wouldn't regret it.
But wake up, that is what is going on.
Look riverrat, for this entire thread you have repeatedly whined about how the culture, the people who made abortion legal, and anyone and everything else is to blame for your choice to get an abortion.
Right, my choice, based on what I knew, and what I was taught.
I don't see how you can define it any other way.
Just because you apparently have a great deal of trouble making moral or ethical decisions for yourself without having some outside entity tell you what you can and cannot do
BS schraf, we are all products of our surroundings. You fall into that category also. Your decisions are not anymore intelligent than what has been taught to you.
You made a decision. It was one you clearly regret at this time.
Grow up and deal with it.
Oh brother.
I don't have a problem with my decision.
I have a problem with abortion.
Grow up and deal with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by nator, posted 05-10-2006 6:04 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-11-2006 4:57 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 284 by jar, posted 05-11-2006 5:23 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 285 by nator, posted 05-11-2006 5:32 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 281 of 292 (311092)
05-11-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:31 AM


Re: wrap up
BS schraf, we are all products of our surroundings. You fall into that category also. Your decisions are not anymore intelligent than what has been taught to you.
empty the jails! we're not responsible for our choices!
Oh brother.
I don't have a problem with my decision.
I have a problem with abortion.
Grow up and deal with it.
abortion is a decision. it's not like it's being forced on anyone. you made a decision you regret. it was not required of you. have a problem with yourself getting abortions, but stay away from the reasonable, responsible decisions of people who choose to think for themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 5:05 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 282 of 292 (311095)
05-11-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by macaroniandcheese
05-11-2006 4:57 PM


Re: wrap up
Ok, it's official.
Circle jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-11-2006 4:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-11-2006 5:22 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 283 of 292 (311102)
05-11-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 5:05 PM


Re: wrap up
or just jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 5:05 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by nator, posted 05-11-2006 5:38 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 284 of 292 (311103)
05-11-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:31 AM


The defining post of this thread ...
... and the key to many of the discussion we have here at EvC
riVeRraT posited:
Your decisions are not anymore intelligent than what has been taught to you.
and therein lies the basic difference between the two bodies of posters here at EvC. I think he really beluieves that statement, as do many others here at EvC. They believe they are the sum of what they have been taught.
There are two groups of thinkers in this world, those who look for answers to questions, and those who look for the questions to answers.
riVeRraT, many folk are not the sum of what they are taught, infact some are even known to question what they are taught.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by nator, posted 05-11-2006 5:36 PM jar has not replied
 Message 289 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 6:21 PM jar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 285 of 292 (311106)
05-11-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:31 AM


Re: wrap up
quote:
Right, my choice, based on what I knew, and what I was taught.
If you didn't know enough, that's your fault.
If you didn't think it through, it's your fault.
Stop expecting the culture to protect you from your own negligence.
Stop expecting the culture to be your parent, riverrat.
Just because you apparently have a great deal of trouble making moral or ethical decisions for yourself without having some outside entity tell you what you can and cannot do
quote:
BS schraf, we are all products of our surroundings. You fall into that category also. Your decisions are not anymore intelligent than what has been taught to you.
We are each of us a product of our culture, yes.
But, let us not lose sight of the start of this argument.
You claim that murdering a 4 year old child is equivalent to having an abortion, yet when asked if you and your gitrlfriend should be tried and convicted for murder you say that because it was legal, you shouldn't be.
That is a terribly self-serving contradiction, rat.
Either you believe it's murder or you don't.
Either you believe that murder is a crime or you don't.
Decide what you believe, and then apply it to your own actions.
So far, it certainly seems to me that you believe that having an abortion is a murder except when YOU did it.
Again, let me repeat that this is a terribly self-serving contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2006 8:31 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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