rat mothers

Ok then, if birth control has no intentions, or the intentions of it's manufactures are not garuanteed, then where does the intention lie, or the liability fall when one gets pregnant?

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those that employ them have intentions

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The liability is on the consensual parties engaged in the intercourse, I thought I had made that clear, but I'm happy to explicitly state it if there was any ambiguity over it.This message has been edited by Modulous, Tue, 02-May-2006 12:45 PM

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I wasn't giving my child up for adoption, there is no logic in bringing that up.

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Sure there is, and of course you could have chosen put it up for adoption. You just didn't.You implied that part of the reason you chose to obtain an abortion was because it was legal. Furthermore, you imply that society is mostly to blame for your choice just because the choice exists. You imply that you had practically no choice at all but to terminate the pregnancy, among several courses of action you could have taken.You COULD have chosen to put the child up for adoption, as it was one among all of the legal (and illegal) options open to you.If say that you took the fact that abortion was legal into account when deciding if you wanted to get one or not, then you must have also taken the fact that adoption was legal into account when deciding if you wanted to go that route to deal with your situation.You made your choice among several legal options.The logic is perfectly valid, as I have demonstrated.You may want or believe it to be wrong, but you'll have to do better than simple bald assertions.It's easy to say "you're wrong". It's the explanation of exactly how and why the argument is wrong that will convince, and that's exactly what is missing from your replies to me.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-02-2006 08:09 AM

That's the part that you made up. I imply nothing more than what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth, as usual. Had I known that getting an abortion was so terrible, then I would have considered this. Your logic is flawed, again. I must have? Really? Legal, and morally acceptable. Please, do me a favor, don't tell me how I feel about things. I am telling the way it is, pretty simple.

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That's the part that you made up. I imply nothing more than what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth, as usual.

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Well, what you said strongly implies that you believe that you were heavily influenced by society to think that you had to have an abortion, thus implying that you believed that you had very few choices other than abortion.You have repeatedly blamed the fact that abortion is legal for you choosing to obtain an abortion.You have already told me that you ruled adoption out entirely, yet you couldn't possibly have been completely ignorant of the fact that it was an available and quite legal option.

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Had I known that getting an abortion was so terrible, then I would have considered this. Your logic is flawed, again.

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Are you seriously telling me that you never once gave even a moment's consideration to the choice to adopt out the baby once it was born? I am sorry, I simply find it very difficult to believe you to be telling the truth. If you ARE telling the truth, then that is just too sad that neither you nor your girlfriend bothered to research all of your options.

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I must have? Really?

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Yes, just like you took into account the choice to keep the child once it was born and raise it, which is also a legal option.I sincerely hope you weighed ALL of your options, because the alternative is really rather disturbing.

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Legal, and morally acceptable.

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Yes, I agree that abortion is a legal and morally acceptable option, in most cases.

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Please, do me a favor, don't tell me how I feel about things.

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YOU told me how you feel about my logic, but I really don't care.If it is flawed, then SHOW how it is flawed.Otherwise, you are just whining and making an empty retort that fools nobody.

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I am telling the way it is, pretty simple.

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No, please show me exactly, in detail, how the following message is employing faulty logic:---------------------------------

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I wasn't giving my child up for adoption, there is no logic in bringing that up.

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I said nothing of the sort, that is all schrafinator. I have not blamed, it is just a fact. It was never ruled out, it was never even thought of.I did not want the responsibility of what I had done, at all. Part of this attitude is that we live in a society where this is ok. That is because abortion is legal. If it wasn't legal, then I would have not done it. I would have had a different attitude about it.Everyone here that is for abortion uses the same exuses as I used, and yet you fail to haggle them, that makes you a hypocrite. Why pick on me? Well isn't that just too bad, go call your mother. What otions? Why would we even have to think any further than abortion when it is so easy, and no responsibility has to be put on us? IT's ok, society accepts it, according to all the experts it's not killing a life, right? I just did.Schraf, it's over, ok?Your way off topic on your own thread. You started this whole thing just to bust my balls.My reasons for being against abortion are iron clad, and they don't involve my God. Does that bother you or something?My reasons for getting an abortion are iron clad, I was a product of society, since I had nothing else to go on. It is exactly why it is legal, if you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with abortion, not my decision to be involved in one.The only problem is once you have one, you learn different. It's killing life, and it's avoiding responsibility for what you intentionally did. It's a way out for people, at the expense of life.I understand both sides, since I have been on both sides, and I know choose to be against abortion. But I am not on any pickett lines, or putting up web-sites that degrade the people who are for it.If you don't like it, then get out of America.

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I said nothing of the sort, that is all schrafinator.

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It's fine if you want to think this, but I think those who have been reading this thread know what you have implied.

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I have not blamed, it is just a fact.

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Ok, you say it your way.You say you chose to obtain an abortion because it is a fact that the choice of obtaining a safe and legal abortion exists at all.Again, this leads us back to the notion of you wanting to foist the responsibility of your choices upon someone or something else.Nobody forced you to choose to obtain the abortion, just like nobody forces people to get six credit cards and run up huge debt.YOU chose it, among several other options.

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It was never ruled out, it was never even thought of.

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I find that incredible and disturbing, if true.

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I did not want the responsibility of what I had done, at all.
Part of this attitude is that we live in a society where this is ok.

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I disagree.

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That is because abortion is legal. If it wasn't legal, then I would have not done it. I would have had a different attitude about it.

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Again, why do you expect the law to make your personal moral decisions for you?I mean, is the only reason you, say, refrain from raping and murdering and pillaging is because such actions are deemed illegal by our criminal justice system?Are you horribly rude to all people you meet simply because there is no law against it?It isn't illegal to not wash oneself; does that mean that you haven't had a bath in years?If you or your girlfriend were opposed to abortion, nobody could have forced her to get one.

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Everyone here that is for abortion uses the same exuses as I used, and yet you fail to haggle them, that makes you a hypocrite. Why pick on me?

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I really don't understand what you are saying.

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Well isn't that just too bad, go call your mother.

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Unresponsive, empty retort.

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What otions?

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1) Termination of the preganacy.
2) Carrying the pregnancy to term and giving it up for adoption.
3) Carrying the pregnancy to term and keeping it.

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Why would we even have to think any further than abortion when it is so easy, and no responsibility has to be put on us?

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Because, if you are personally morally opposed to abortion, or decided that you wanted to be or were accepting of being a parent at that time, you could have chosen another avenue. But you didn't.Nobody forced you. You made a choice that you seemingly regret, but such is life. We live and learn.And you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that abortion is "easy". It is incredibly demeaning and insulting for you to say such a thing, since most women and girls take this issue very seriously and I doubt many of them share your attitude of "ease" surrounding it.

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IT's ok, society accepts it, according to all the experts it's not killing a life, right?

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No, it isn't killing a person.If you were against abortion, you shouldn't have gotten one.But the choice was YOURS. Nobody forced you.

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I just did.

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No, you just spouted more of the same baseless claims you have been all along.

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My reasons for being against abortion are iron clad, and they don't involve my God. Does that bother you or something?

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What bothers me are your self-contradictory statments and your consistent effort to blame society for your own moral choices.You believe that abortion is the same as killing a 4 year old child, yet when YOU got an abortion, it was legal, so YOU shouldn't go to prison or be executed.The responsibility for ANYTHING that is legal that you choose to do, but then morally object to afterwards, you can shift that blame, that responsibility to society, right?"The culture made me do it! If it wasn't for the law of the land, I would rape, pilliage, and murder with abandon, such is the basis for my every action and my moral compass! Therefore, Society is to blame for me terminating a pregnancy, because it was legal, and I base ALL of my morality upon if something is legal or not."I know you will just deny that this is the position you have taken, but it most definitely is, and those reading this thread will certainly see it.

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My reasons for getting an abortion are iron clad, I was a product of society, since I had nothing else to go on. It is exactly why it is legal, if you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with abortion, not my decision to be involved in one.

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I don't have a problem with your decision to be involved in an abortion.Not in the least. You probably made the best decision you could at the time.

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The only problem is once you have one, you learn different. It's killing life, and it's avoiding responsibility for what you intentionally did.

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You intentionally wanted to get your girlfriend pregnant?

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It's a way out for people, at the expense of life.

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But what about your life, and your girlfriend's life? Those are precious and important lives, even more so because you are both fully human and independent.

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I understand both sides, since I have been on both sides, and I know choose to be against abortion. But I am not on any pickett lines, or putting up web-sites that degrade the people who are for it.

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There are people here on this forum who have had abortions.How do you think they feel when you say that you believe that killing a 4 year old and having an abortion are the same thing? Sorry, I'm not going anywhere.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-07-2006 08:53 AMThis message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-07-2006 09:01 AM

I will, which also happens to be the way it happened. Yes, having abortion will lead to disturbing thoughts. Too bad. Yes, otherwise if we were on a deserted island, you would be mine, and there would ne nothing you could do about it. If I wanted you.But oh wait, our morals, thats right, they are defined by laws and society's ability to accept them, oh. That's the stupidest thing you ever said.
Another moronic analogy So what is your point, and what does that have to do with the price of gas? There you go.
By the order you placed them in, can't you see that if the first one is the pick, based on our current society, then why explore the other two? Omg, you are think.I was not morally oppposed to abortion at the time, how many times must I say it? I regret it because it's wrong. I had to go through it and learn that. Why did I have to live and learn, when it should have been wrong at the time? At no point have I ever used the word person, why use it now, answer me. That statement makes no sense whatsoever No, part of it, like I said, the other part I can blame on my liberal mother. Apaarently your reading comprehension is extremely low, because I was not against abortion at the time. Based on what society and school and my mother taught me, yes. Too bad it was a wrong one. NO, I intentioanlly wanted to fuck her brains out, too bad pregnancy was a part of my selfish needs. Oh yea, we are fine now. I don't care, it's my opinion, I can state it. The get over it.

is it wrong to kill ants who have moved into your house? they are alive and just trying to pursue their lives and eat. nice. half to society, half to mom. nothing left for you. sucks. i'd hate to be trapped in your mind. i can't imagine being bound only by laws. obviously, since your conscience is clear and your horrible terrible sin is the fault of your mother and society and not yours at all. nope. we still have control of our constitution, thanks. you get over it.

We are talking about human life, in case you didn't notice. You still do not get the picture.
I did what I was taught. IT was OK, until the actual experience taught me otherwise. I think this is the 100th time I repeated that. It was a sarcastic remark. Then get over it if you have control of our constitution.

no. i get the picture. you made a decision you regret and you want to blame it on others. if you didn't get all the information it is your failing. the information has been out there. immaterial. just because you wish you hadn't made that decision is not a reason to outlaw. it is a reason to think for yourself.

Returning to Schraf's OP, this article appeared in the NY Times today in the context of Mother's Day.

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One Thing They Aren't: Maternal

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As much as we may like to believe that mother animals are designed to nurture and protect their young, to fight to the death, if need be, to keep their offspring alive, in fact, nature abounds with mothers that defy the standard maternal script in a raft of macabre ways. There are mothers that zestily eat their young and mothers that drink their young's blood. Mothers that pit one young against the other in a fight to the death and mothers that raise one set of their babies on the flesh of their siblings.

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Reminded me of the original topic of this thread.Maternal manipulation of offspring survivorship can take many forms in nature, but its all about ensuring the survival of some at the expence of others.This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-09-2006 06:22 AM

I read with interest some of Dawkins the other day. He addressed population control in various species. There seems to be an awareness in some species of population density and they adjust litter size (or whatever) appropriately - more of her offspring will survive if she concentrates her resources rather than squander them.I wonder, could abortive responses such as reabsorbtion, infanticide and abortion be related to this kind of population control?

Actually, the idea of animals ”assessing’ their population density and adjusting their reproduction accordingly was originally put forward by Wynne-Edwards in 1962 in his book Animal Dispersion in Relation to Social Behavior and his observations have been largely reinterpreted since. GC Williams was able to demonstrate convincingly in his book Adaptation and Natural Selection (1966) that most of the behaviors Wynne-Edwards was talking about were actually explainable by selection acting on the individual. The ”for the good of the species’ type argument, once common, is no longer considered an acceptable usage of the concept of group selection.Maternal infanticide is clearly explainable by indivdual selection. It is merely a strategy of the mother to (1) ensure the survival of one offspring at the expense of others, or (2) to tradeoff current reproductive effort (the outcome of which might be temporarily dismal) for the sake of increasing her future reproductive effort. All this makes sense when we realize that mothers are selected to maximize their own fitness function, not the fitness function of each of their progeny. The two are not the same, hence the manifestation of parent-offpsring conflicts as first outlined by Trivers in 1977.AbE. So to answer your question, fetal resorption, infanticide and abortion can all be viewed as mechanisms by which a female can manipulate the timing of her reproductive effort to ultimately maximize her own fitness, even the immediate result appears to be in conflict with that goal.EZThis message has been edited by EZscience, 05-09-2006 11:48 AM

To clarify: I was very much not referring to group selection, and more on individual selection. And yes, it was Williams' work that I was alluding to. If a mother produces three kids who might well starve to death, she could find herself wasting a lot of time. She won't do nearly as well as a mother that produces two kids who probably won't starve.