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Author Topic:   rat mothers
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2445 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 211 of 292 (307004)
04-27-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by riVeRraT
04-27-2006 7:12 AM


Re: acts of god inevitably happen
Getting an abortion is not seeking medical help for an injury.
It is in the context of our disscution - society's responsability toward the "losers" in the game of risk management, their right to be teated for their accidents and not punished. If you need a definition of accident:
Accident Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
(I dont see many people using online dictionaries in the forum - its quite helpful + 'I aint spells too good' , for more context use Wikepedia).
I never said a car accident can't be an accident. You don't have accidents from driving your car. You have an accident when you fail to follow rules, or make an UNINTENTIONAL mistake.
We are not disscusing intentional crashing/pregnancy so "failing to follow rules" isnt relevant.
"UNINTENTIONAL mistake" - good we're getting somewhere. What I have been trying to equivocate is driving and sex(the intentional action), car crashes and pregnancy (the "UNINTENTIONAL mistake").
Therefore, IMO, our responsability as asociety is to help people that are victims of an "UNINTENTIONAL mistake" - thats the analogy.
I hate that analogy with a passion.
Yes, but what kind of passion? Intelectualy motivated - you know this when you can phrase you answer to it whithout an analogy and usind evidence. Or emotionaly motivated - you know this when you get dizzy after reading it. (all in good humor)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 7:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 6:04 PM kalimero has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 212 of 292 (307159)
04-27-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NosyNed
04-26-2006 9:20 PM


Re: Total Consistency
quote:
Why the rant, Schraf?
Oh, well, you know, it's getting close to the weekend...
Or, maybe it's that the Rat has given me the runaround for at least 6 posts as he ducks and dodges and avoids my questions and I'm beginning to get a bit peeved.
quote:
This is totally consistent. The religious zealots believe that atheists have to be immoral (or amoral) monsters because they don't believe there is anyone (thing) to make them behave. They themselves demonstrate that while that is not true for a large fraction of atheists it is true for the cultists to a great degree.
They HAVE to have a morality imposed on them externally. They have not internal voice to tell them how to behave. That is they have no conscience.
So if there are no laws and punishments for an action they may well, when it is convenient, take that action. Since that is true of them they believe it must be true of all.
hahahaha.
Ouch.
LOL
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-27-2006 05:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NosyNed, posted 04-26-2006 9:20 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 6:06 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 213 of 292 (307161)
04-27-2006 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by riVeRraT
04-27-2006 7:19 AM


Re: Rsex
So, you are fully responsible.
Right?
quote:
No.
So, you were forced to consent to the abortion, even though it was contrary to your personal moral principles?
So, just because it is legal for you to have intercourse with a different person every day of your life, is that an indication to you that this is OK?
quote:
Yep, and it's accepted.
I don't believe you.
I think that you are arguing dishonestly right now.
Shame on you.
Are you saying that you are not ultimately responsible for your own actions?
quote:
Sometimes, yes.
Like when?
Were they forced, rat?
Were they FORCED?
That is the question I asked.
quote:
What does force have anything to do with it.
Merciful Christ, will you please try to follow the argument?
Were the adult people who got six credit cards and got so far into debt that they went bankrupt make the free choice to get those cards and run up those bills, or were they forced in any way to do those things?
The answer is NO, rat, and you know it.
Did you and your girlfriend, as adults, make the free choice to terminate the unwanted pregnancy, or were you in any way forced to do it?
The answer is NO, and you know it.
I am providing examples of other moral choices to show that just because something is legal doesn't mean that you get to blame society for your moral choice.
quote:
I don't blame people who go and get 6 credit cards, and run them up to the max, then declare bankruptcy, completely. Why should I? The law allowed it.
You seem to believe that they should feel guilty, and they are behaving irresponsibly, when you said in message 196 of this thread:
quote:
There are many people who feel they are not responsibile, and bankruptcy is a way of life for them. They do it, because society allows it, and they do not feel guilty about it.
Were you FORCED to agree to the abortion, rat?
Did anyone FORCE your girlfriend to get the abortion?
quote:
I didn't agree, I suggested it.
She didn't really want it, but once I wanted it, that influenced her to get it. Maybe something we both regret now.
So, nobody forced you, then, right?
You discussed it and chose it freely among all of the various options?
Right?
quote:
It was/is legal, and morally acceptable.
Wait, are you now saying that you think that abortion is morally acceptable??
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-27-2006 05:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 7:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 6:16 PM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 214 of 292 (307166)
04-27-2006 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by EZscience
04-27-2006 9:42 AM


Re: Rsex
You mean like buying cheap condoms that happen to break?
Cheap condoms, lol
Have you visited the Trojan website? Check out all the warnings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by EZscience, posted 04-27-2006 9:42 AM EZscience has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 215 of 292 (307170)
04-27-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by kalimero
04-27-2006 10:26 AM


Re: acts of god inevitably happen
John: Let's have sex Sally!
Sally: You know John, sex can cause pregnancy!
John: I know Sally, but I have this condom!
Sally: John, you learned in sex-ed that condoms are not 100%
John: But I am horny and willing to take that risk
Sally: Ok, but if I get pregnant, it will be an accident ok?
John: Ok...I will call it an accident, now take your clothes off!
Sally: Ok, I love you!!
John: I like you alot, get naked.
Sally: Want me to do my condom trick?
John: oh yea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by kalimero, posted 04-27-2006 10:26 AM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by kalimero, posted 04-28-2006 1:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 216 of 292 (307172)
04-27-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by nator
04-27-2006 5:07 PM


Re: Total Consistency
Or, maybe it's that the Rat has given me the runaround for at least 6 posts as he ducks and dodges and avoids my questions and I'm beginning to get a bit peeved.
No, because for you, when it suites you, and it's conveinent, it's left or right, there is no middle.
hahahaha.
Ouch.
LOL
Pathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by nator, posted 04-27-2006 5:07 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 217 of 292 (307175)
04-27-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by nator
04-27-2006 5:26 PM


Re: Rsex
So, you are fully responsible.
Right?
quote:No.
So, you were forced to consent to the abortion, even though it was contrary to your personal moral principles?
No.
So, just because it is legal for you to have intercourse with a different person every day of your life, is that an indication to you that this is OK?
quote:Yep, and it's accepted.
I don't believe you.
I think that you are arguing dishonestly right now.
Shame on you.
I tried to be like that once, what is the big deal?
I could never find the right ones though.
Are you saying that you are not ultimately responsible for your own actions?
quote:Sometimes, yes.
Like when?
When I know it's fully wrong, and yet I still do it.
Were the adult people who got six credit cards and got so far into debt that they went bankrupt make the free choice to get those cards and run up those bills, or were they forced in any way to do those things?
I know people who did it because they could.
The answer is not no. And the answer is not always simple.
Did you and your girlfriend, as adults, make the free choice to terminate the unwanted pregnancy, or were you in any way forced to do it?
The answer is NO, and you know it.
What does being forced have anything to do with it?
You do not have to be forced into something for you not to carry any of the blame. I hope you do not go hypocrite on me, as I will be watching you now.
quote:It was/is legal, and morally acceptable.
Wait, are you now saying that you think that abortion is morally acceptable??
For the most part it is, who could blame someone for doing it, when it is legal. We live in a country where you can do it, and it is legal.
Who's to blame for that? Sometimes people don't know any better, until they go through it.
http://www.gargaro.com/regrets.html
Please, schraf, will you stop debating with me, and just accept that the answers are not always easy, or yes and no. Try to have some understanding of what I am saying, and not be so hell bent on just trying to make me appear wrong, by laughing at me, and trying to make me feel worse for what I did. Have a heart for Christ's sake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by nator, posted 04-27-2006 5:26 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by nator, posted 04-27-2006 8:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 218 of 292 (307196)
04-27-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by riVeRraT
04-27-2006 6:16 PM


pick one, rat.
I am not debating with you, I am not trying to make you look wrong.
I am simply trying to get you to answer the following question:
"If abortion is clearly murder as you have claimed, and the people who made it legal should be sent to prison, shouldn't abortion be illegal and shouldn't anyone involved in getting an abortion, like you and your girlfriend, be imprisoned for life or executed for the crime of premeditated murder?"
Wouldn't that be morally justified in your mind, if abortion is murder?
In my mind, you need to pick one of the following positions:
1) Abortion under any circumstances is premeditated murder of innocent life, and is thus unacceptably immoral and my own personal actions and responsibilities are deserving of the usual consequences; that is, life in prison or execution.
2) Abortion is not a premeditated murder of innocent life, and is thus a moral option when facing an unwanted pregnancy and my own personal actions and responsibilities are not deserving of any censure, legal or social.
3) Abortion is a moral gray area and no one can mke definitive declarations about its morality or deserved consequences, but instead each of us must decide for ourselves our own moral position on the issue and act accordingly.
What I find incredibly ironic is that you are acting exactly like the anti-legal abortion activists who got abortions in the article I posted in the now-closed thread which preceeded this one.
You have used very black and white language: "abortion is murder", and that "having an abortion is no different than killing a 4 year old", yet now when discussing your own situation, you begin to plead that that "there are no simple anwers".
I'm not trying to make you feel bad for what you've done. If anything, what you should feel bad about is casting severe (abortion is murder) moral judgment,
...except when it comes to your own personal circumstances, where you claim there aren't simple answers.
I agree there aren't simple answers. But not just in your own little world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 6:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by EZscience, posted 04-27-2006 9:20 PM nator has not replied
 Message 221 by riVeRraT, posted 04-28-2006 8:33 AM nator has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 219 of 292 (307213)
04-27-2006 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by nator
04-27-2006 8:28 PM


Re: pick one, rat.
schraf writes:
... you are acting exactly like the anti-legal abortion activists who got abortions in the article I posted in the now-closed thread which preceeded this one.
Strange. I got that impression also.
Schraf writes:
.....except when it comes to your own personal circumstances
I was honestly surprised when I finally clued in that old RR had actually been involved in such an un-godly act.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by nator, posted 04-27-2006 8:28 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by riVeRraT, posted 04-28-2006 7:42 AM EZscience has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 220 of 292 (307268)
04-28-2006 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by EZscience
04-27-2006 9:20 PM


Re: pick one, rat.
schraf writes:
... you are acting exactly like the anti-legal abortion activists who got abortions in the article I posted in the now-closed thread which preceded this one.
Strange. I got that impression also.
You have now just entered in to the retarded zone, way to go.
The thread that spawned this one is called "anti-abortion activists still get abortions".
You will have to explain how you came to your assessment since you now argued the person, and not the topic. You have accused me of something that is entirely not true, and there is no way you could have deduced that from any of the conversations. So that leaves in question your ability to interpret what is actually going on.
I was honestly surprised when I finally clued in that old RR had actually been involved in such an un-godly act.
Which just proves how you have not been reading any of this. I am not old RR. If your a scientist, then leave your personal feelings out of it, and attack it from a logical stand point, not a passionate one, something all you logical folks seem to always do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by EZscience, posted 04-27-2006 9:20 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by EZscience, posted 04-28-2006 3:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 221 of 292 (307296)
04-28-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by nator
04-27-2006 8:28 PM


Re: pick one, rat.
"If abortion is clearly murder as you have claimed, and the people who made it legal should be sent to prison, shouldn't abortion be illegal and shouldn't anyone involved in getting an abortion, like you and your girlfriend, be imprisoned for life or executed for the crime of premeditated murder?"
I am pretty sure I have answered this question already, and the answer is not a simple yes or no.
Wouldn't that be morally justified in your mind, if abortion is murder?
Maybe I shouldn't have said murder, since there is so many legal terms for ending human life. The main thing I am saying is we shouldn't do it, because it is ending human life. In some ways it could be considered worse than murder, because not only did you kill it, you created it. But I am not making this the rule, just pointing it out.
I have stated that I do feel horrible about whatr I did, only after I did it, I do feel like what I did is worse than murder, because I created a life, my own offspring, then I killed it. It fucking hurts.
1) Abortion under any circumstances is premeditated murder of innocent life, and is thus unacceptably immoral and my own personal actions and responsibilities are deserving of the usual consequences; that is, life in prison or execution.
Can't pick that one.
2) Abortion is not a premeditated murder of innocent life, and is thus a moral option when facing an unwanted pregnancy and my own personal actions and responsibilities are not deserving of any censure, legal or social.
Can't pick that one.
3) Abortion is a moral gray area and no one can mke definitive declarations about its morality or deserved consequences, but instead each of us must decide for ourselves our own moral position on the issue and act accordingly.
Can't pick that one either.
What I find incredibly ironic is that you are acting exactly like the anti-legal abortion activists who got abortions in the article I posted in the now-closed thread which preceeded this one.
I feel like telling you to fuck-off, but I won't.
About the worst thing you can do is call me a hypocrite. You will have to explain that statement now, and compare it to the other thread, and Joyce's article.
Isn't it obvious that I did not come off a picket line to have an abortion, then get back on one?
I am also not an activist, I just think it's wrong.
You have used very black and white language: "abortion is murder", and that "having an abortion is no different than killing a 4 year old", yet now when discussing your own situation, you begin to plead that that "there are no simple anwers".
There are no simple answers.
Everytime someone gets killed, is it murder? Isn't there motive, intent, and all that other legal stuff?
I did nothing wrong, admit it. I was under the impression when I did it, that it was going to be an OK thing. Well it wasn't, and thousands, if not millions of people agree with me.
I'm not trying to make you feel bad for what you've done. If anything, what you should feel bad about is casting severe (abortion is murder) moral judgment,
Scraf, if it is a moral judgement, then it shouldn't be cast that it is ok either.
I am not really debating the morality of it. Laws are not based solely on morality. I am debating that it is human life, and it is wrong to kill human life, because it is no accident that someone becomes pregnant, when purposefully having sex.
It's pretty simple, and ironclad statement.
Life is a good thing, not a bad thing. All of medical science is driven to help save lives, not kill them. This is the one area, besides Dr.Kavorkian's antics that focuses on killing human life. People who are for abortion, will not admit that it is human life, because then they would be doing something wrong.
I agree there aren't simple answers. But not just in your own little world.
It's our world schraf, we live in it together. We are a human race.
Speaking of my own little world, when I die and go to heaven, I want to have my own planet. It will be ext26 off the intergalactic highway, and your all welcome to come and play there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by nator, posted 04-27-2006 8:28 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by nator, posted 04-29-2006 10:09 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 222 of 292 (307297)
04-28-2006 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Modulous
04-26-2006 7:20 PM


Re: bringing it to a close (honestly)
Sorry to bring this back up, but my arguement relies heavily on the word accident.
If you "accidentally" scrap yourself with a rusty nail, does it accidentally become infected?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Modulous, posted 04-26-2006 7:20 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Modulous, posted 04-28-2006 1:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 223 of 292 (307413)
04-28-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by riVeRraT
04-28-2006 8:37 AM


not bringing it to a close just yet
Sorry to bring this back up, but my arguement relies heavily on the word accident.
If you "accidentally" scrap yourself with a rusty nail, does it accidentally become infected?
You're the one that brought up accidents rR. I brought up rusty nails for an entirely different reason to which you thought I was saying 'sex is an accident'. I assured you that was not what I was talking about, but that pregnancy could be considered accidental.
I clarified (to death) what I meant by the word accident when I said it. An unintended event occuring as the result of a known or unknown risk coming about. You want to consider sexually active premarital couples as a moral hazard, but I argued that this is an unfair position because people are going to have sex either way (as opposed to say arson which people are not going to do either way), and its not like anyone benefits from having an abortion.
Now you are either trying to continue pushing the 'acts of god are the only type of accident' or the 'in a deterministic world nothing is an accident' argument. I'm not sure how much clearer I need to be: I don't care how you define accident. You wanted to know how I was using the word. I know you aren't pig-thick so I know that you know how I was using the word.
Let me clear it up once and for all.
If I do a thing that has a risk associated with it (for example parachuting). Let's say that we know that one in 10,000 times the parachute won't open and I'll die. The parachute opens, and we call it a tragic accident. This is how I was using the word 'accident'. You can argue that this isn't an accurate use of the word all you like, but you cannot argue that according to my definition that isn't an accident.
Probably the best word that's been used is 'unintentional'. If something happens that wasn't the intent of those participating (even if there was always a risk that it could happen), then I call it an accident.
I'm not going to equivocate on my terms; I understand that the word accident can be used in different ways in different contexts. All you have to do is understand how I was using my words, and you'll understand what I was saying, and its very simple.
'I accidentally got pregnant'
is synonymous with
'I unintentionally got pregnant'
If you want that in contexts of the nail analogy we could look at it like this:
'I accidentally got an infected wound'
If your argument rests heavily on the word accident, you are probably arguing semantics. This thread doesn't need this constant repetition. If you have a point make it, if you want me to tell you how I was using the word 'accident' I'm not going to do it again. Look back at the thread to understand, I've spent literally hours underlining it already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by riVeRraT, posted 04-28-2006 8:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by riVeRraT, posted 04-29-2006 11:37 AM Modulous has replied

  
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2445 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 224 of 292 (307415)
04-28-2006 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by riVeRraT
04-27-2006 6:04 PM


Re: acts of god inevitably happen
John: Let's have sex Sally!
Sally: You know John, sex can cause pregnancy!
John: I know Sally, but I have this condom!
Sally: John, you learned in sex-ed that condoms are not 100%
John: But I am horny and willing to take that risk
Sally: Ok, but if I get pregnant, it will be an accident ok?
John: Ok...I will call it an accident, now take your clothes off!
Sally: Ok, I love you!!
John: I like you alot, get naked.
Sally: Want me to do my condom trick?
John: oh yea.
What? I have already responded to that argument I'll try again:
John: Lets go for a drive Sally!
Sally: You know John, driving can cause car crashes!
John: I know Sally, but I have seat belts!
Sally: John, you learned from drivers ED that seat belts are not 100%
John: But I realy want to go for a ride (a lesser motivation but still a motivation)
Sally Ok, but if I get hurt, I will be an accident ok?
John: Ok...I will call it an accident, now get in the car!
Sally: Ok, I love you!!
......
conclusions:
1. No car crashes are accidents because you dicide to drive a car.
2. Nobody should have car insurance or health care (due to a car crash) because its their fault.
3. Emotionaly charged arguments are not a way to make a point - especially in the science forum (which we are not in).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by riVeRraT, posted 04-27-2006 6:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by riVeRraT, posted 04-29-2006 11:38 AM kalimero has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 225 of 292 (307437)
04-28-2006 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by riVeRraT
04-28-2006 7:42 AM


Vasectomies etc.
RR writes:
. attack it from a logical stand point
No personal attack, just personal commentary.
As far as logic, I don’t see any reason to repeat all the logic that has been leveled at you already that you have failed to negate.
RR writes:
About the worst thing you can do is call me a hypocrite.
You continue to express moral opposition to the concept of abortion, and yet this did not stop you from resorting to one when you were personally in need of such a recourse. Hmmmm .
RR writes:
I am debating that it is human life, and it is wrong to kill human life, because it is no accident that someone becomes pregnant, when purposefully having sex.
OK. Logic. Let’s see.
1. unborn baby = human
2. wrong to kill human
3. prenancy <> accident when sex is consensual
I can see a tenuous link between the first two, but that third one that doesn’t seem very logically related to the other two.
I just don’t think you are ever going to be able to sell this “no pregancy from consensual sex can be an accident” angle.
Furthermore, what I (and others, likely) are reacting to is your implicit position that anyone engaging in sex should be forced to bear the full consequences of their actions, birth control or no, simply because .
RR writes:
I just think it's wrong.
Easy for you to say now, Mr. Vasectomy.
Let me ask you this.
What if you wife had become pregnant after your vasectomy ? - possible if you didn’t wait quite long enough for the semen to clear.
Would you have considered it an ”accident’?
Nice new avatar BTW. Is it meant to depict your approach to debating?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by riVeRraT, posted 04-28-2006 7:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by riVeRraT, posted 04-29-2006 11:44 AM EZscience has not replied

  
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