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Author Topic:   The Fact of Death
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 151 of 167 (310523)
05-09-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by JavaMan
05-09-2006 7:50 AM


Re: Summation thus far...
But it is a mistake to think of this function as the essential 'you', for the following reasons:
Agreed. I am arguing there is no essential you and your points support that.
That still leaves awareness to be accounted for and for me that there is awareness is a fundamental mystery.
For me that anything at all exists is a mystery, call it a miraculous mystery. That it exists and is awaren that it exists is even deeper mystery. This personal response of mine to my experience of what I experience as the fact of being and awareness is my mystical or spiritual aspect. I like to keep it personal rather than clothe it in traditional organized religion and I like to integrate it as much as possible with my intellectual interest in knowledge about the universe.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by JavaMan, posted 05-09-2006 7:50 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by JavaMan, posted 05-10-2006 10:46 AM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 152 of 167 (310533)
05-09-2006 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
05-09-2006 9:37 AM


Re: I -dentity
The i can still sit there observing jumbled thoughts. The i may well cease to have a mode of expression. But it doesn't necessarily cease to exist. A baby doesn't have memories but that is not to say that it is not an i.
Ian,
Damasio is a neurologists who has written some very fascinating popular science on this subject. He identifies two modes of awareness.
I've forgotten his terms but there is a form of epiletic seizure where people act without awareness, the so called sleep walking.
There are also people who have lost the ability to move short term memory into long term memory. Any way I'm not suggesting you read the book but for anyone interested in this subject his book is readable, knowledgeable and excellent.
The feeling of what happens : body and emotion in the making of consciousness
Author : Damasio, Antonio R.
Publisher, Date : New York : Harcourt Brace, c1999. - Edition : 1st ed.
ISBN : 0151003696 - Description : xii, 386 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
It seems (Ifen and myself agreed in any case) that the i sits above and outside thoughts at times.
Well, I suspect we have differnet models of this and if or when we find good ways of expressing this very difficult experience we might find we disagree. I was trying to express Ramana's point that the "I Am" primordial awareness mistakenly identifies with aspects of phenomena that is a particular body/mind and that identification constitutes the illusory experience of being a self, a discreet individual.
Though you haven't formally presented this idea I imagine from your Christian position that you see individuality being the result of a created soul. I don't know if the concept of discreetness will apply to that soul or not in how it's constituted by the source which I expect you to call God.
Hinduism particularly at the time of Buddha also posited a permanent soul, the atman. The Buddha quest was to discover it and his failure might be said to have been the occassion of his awakening. Later Shankara developed the nondual Hindu philosophy of Advaita which agrees with the Buddha on the soul but rather than refuse to speak about God, Shankara said the only thing that exists (aside from illusion) is Brahman, the self existing.
In the context of this discussion I think the dicotomy will be dualism vs monism. Did God create separate discreet beings or is there only Consciousness manifesting in the diverse phenomena of the universe?
busy morning, that's all for now,
lfen

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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2320 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 153 of 167 (310679)
05-10-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
05-09-2006 9:37 AM


Icebergs, orchestras and car crashes
'you are observing' is the nub of it. Me, as self aware, is doing this observation. Irrespective of how much I am observing of the ice-bergs, the ice-bergs aren't me.
Think of the observing self as just the tip of another iceberg. Above the waterline is consciousness; below are your unconscious brain processes. And now imagine that all these tips are just separate protrusions from the same iceberg. That's pretty much how modern science views the brain and consciousness.
Your observing self is special in the sense that it is the centre of attention and decision-making, but it is no more essentially 'you' than your thoughts or memories alone are essentially you.
The brain might in that case be thought of as an orchestra. And any orchestra would do me. The essential is i, the sheet music and the conductor.
A conductor on his own is just a man waving his arms in the air.
An idea, but difficult if not impossible to investigate. The i can still sit there observing jumbled thoughts. The i may well cease to have a mode of expression. But it doesn't necessarily cease to exist.
My point is that the observing self, without the other things that make up identity (like memory and emotions) is just a shell or a ghost of an identity. It certainly doesn't seem to be the 'essence' of identity.
Again this points to a problem with looking purely at a crashed vehicle in which i travels. We can see the wreck but we can't look inside to see if the driver, i, is okay or not.
As you've probably gathered, I don't believe there is a driver separate from the car .
Preconscious Processing of Conscious Actions
Have you ever wondered why that observing self, despite appearing to be essentially you, never seems to have complete control over your thoughts and actions? Why, if it is the conductor, can you not just will a change in behaviour and find your behaviour changing rhythm obediently?
I would argue that it's because the observing/decision-making self you're aware of is only the conscious part of a complex preconscious decision-making process. When you make the decision to move your arm, for example, there are a whole set of brain processes involved in making the decision. Your consciousness of having made a decision is, in a sense, a report of that decision, not the initiating force.
You may find the above description difficult to accept, but there is a great deal of experimental evidence to support it. If the brain is monitored during decision-making tasks, it begins to generate the signals to perform the task before the subject is consciously aware of having made a decision. (Reference: Libet, B. (1985) Unconscious cerebral initiative and the role of conscious will in the initiation of action. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 8, 529-566.)
While we're on this subject you might find the following article interesting. It is surprisingly open in discussing theories other than the author's own!
Preconscious Free Will
This message has been edited by JavaMan, 05-10-2006 09:53 AM

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

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 Message 150 by iano, posted 05-09-2006 9:37 AM iano has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2320 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 154 of 167 (310715)
05-10-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by lfen
05-09-2006 1:47 PM


Awareness
That still leaves awareness to be accounted for and for me that there is awareness is a fundamental mystery.
What do you mean by 'awareness'?

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by lfen, posted 05-09-2006 1:47 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by robinrohan, posted 05-10-2006 11:26 AM JavaMan has replied
 Message 156 by lfen, posted 05-10-2006 11:49 AM JavaMan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 167 (310732)
05-10-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by JavaMan
05-10-2006 10:46 AM


Re: Awareness
What do you mean by 'awareness'?
"Consciousness," perhaps. We have a private experience of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by JavaMan, posted 05-10-2006 10:46 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 156 of 167 (310736)
05-10-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by JavaMan
05-10-2006 10:46 AM


Re: Awareness
As I sit typing this, the organism doing the typing is digesting food, circulating blood, synapses are firing, cells are dividing etc. But what is it, how is it that some of these things: the sound of the clicking of the keys, the pressure on my fingers, I can hear the fan whirring in the computer, I can note my breathing, or swallowing saliva then my attention is elsewhere and I'm no longer aware of those things but of my thinking. Awareness is that conscious or self conscious experience of functioning?
There is functioning and then the attention areas of the brain are aware of functioning. The awareness has it's own quality that seems to be the inside. Looking at a finger or feeling a finger vs. touching something with the finger and "feeling" the experience of the finger.
That there is this responsive interaction of organism and environment most of which I'm not aware of. Some of which I can be aware of or not such as my breathing.
Awareness and attention seem to be related and perhaps synonymous terms. In some way I can't put my finger on the sense of "I" is tied in to this attention, "my" awareness, what "I" am aware of, or experience.
This experience is so intimate that it seems to be myself and I can be aware of it and reflect on but when I try to grasp it it's a hand trying to grasp itself or an eye trying to see itself seeing.
Frustrating to try an define it. It seems so fundamental. Would I even be writing this if I weren't aware?
lfen
edit typo:by changed to be
This message has been edited by lfen, 05-10-2006 08:53 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by JavaMan, posted 05-10-2006 10:46 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 05-10-2006 12:55 PM lfen has replied
 Message 159 by JavaMan, posted 05-11-2006 8:14 AM lfen has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 157 of 167 (310749)
05-10-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by lfen
05-10-2006 11:49 AM


Vroooom...
I think I know what you mean. You have been tracing various connections and interactions as a person would if they were driving a car. One moment, driving in busy traffic and all the attention is on the environment outside and only slight attention to the music playing on the cd player. Automatically check rearview mirror, indicate to turn, check for motorcycles (I wish) and turn.
Into quiet, deserted country road.
Then you become more aware of the environment inside the car. You are listening to the music playing more closely. Humming along in fact. You notice the imperceptible corrections you are making to the steering wheel as it tracks it path down the road. Zen and the Art - like, you take inexplicable, baby-in-a-womb pleasure in the gentle movement of the car as it follows the contours and irregularities in the road.
Another glance in the rearview mirror, out the windshield, in the drivers side mirror. But crane you neck as you might - you can't see the drivers face.
Maybe this is what the Buddha was after when he, by looking at his own mind, did as we are doing here. He was a driver trying to catch a glimpse of the drivers own face.
A hand trying to grasp itself. Attempting to pull oneself up by ones own bootlaces
What would be the quantum flutter which would enable a breakout from this state which any of us can do? How does observing ourself driving ever cause the rear view mirror to turn us-wards?
This message has been edited by iano, 10-May-2006 05:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by lfen, posted 05-10-2006 11:49 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 158 of 167 (310918)
05-10-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
05-10-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Vroooom...
from The Experience of No-Self by Bernadette Roberts
Part of what I understood is how what Is never comes and goes; instead, what comes and goes is the relative mind that is intimately entwined with the self, resolves around the self, and of its own accord can never get out of itself. But once the self has disappeared, this reflective, self-consciousn mind goes with it, and what remains is what Is.
.
Though what Is is everything that truly exists, there is one thing it is not, and that is self, which blocks the view that otherwise allows us to see that which remains when self is gone namely, what Is.
Pp 76

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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2320 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 159 of 167 (310968)
05-11-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by lfen
05-10-2006 11:49 AM


Re: Awareness
As I sit typing this, the organism doing the typing is digesting food, circulating blood, synapses are firing, cells are dividing etc. But what is it, how is it that some of these things: the sound of the clicking of the keys, the pressure on my fingers, I can hear the fan whirring in the computer, I can note my breathing, or swallowing saliva then my attention is elsewhere and I'm no longer aware of those things but of my thinking. Awareness is that conscious or self conscious experience of functioning?
It seems to me that we're aware of two kinds of things: things outside our mind (what we see, hear, touch, etc.), and things inside our mind (thoughts, memories, feelings). Can you imagine having the first type of awareness without the second? And can you imagine functioning without either type of awareness?
I had a strange experience a couple of years ago. We were sitting with friends in a beer garden, chatting. My daughter Freya, who was about 18 months old at the time, was using me and my chair as a climbing frame. At one point she fell off and I caught her, but strangely I had no conscious recollection of noticing her fall. One moment she was climbing over me, the next moment I was bent over slightly, holding her in my arms.
This experience was pretty spooky, even for a materialist like myself, but I think it's understandable without recourse to supernatural explanation.
Our sensory input takes several parallel paths through the brain, and only some of these pathways lead to conscious perception. For example, there are at least three pathways for visual stimuli. One of these passes through the visual cortex and seems to be responsible for our conscious awareness of seeing. The other two pathways, which are much faster and completely unconscious, are responsible for (a) moving the eyeball to focus on an area of movement in the visual field, and (b) preparing the body for action. My interpretation of what happened to me is that some unconscious pathway such as (b) moved my body to catch Freya before the conscious pathway completed its processing.
We depend on these unconscious pathways between sensory input and movement all the time when we play fast sports (which is why so much stress in sports psychology on quieting the conscious mind - when the conscious mind tries to interfere, it slows down reaction times). When we're living at a slower pace, conscious processing has the time it needs, and consequently plays a larger part in our response to situations.
So back to the original questions I asked. What would life be like without any form of conscious awareness? What does that conscious awareness add to our ability to respond to the world?
And secondly, what would life be like if we had conscious awareness of external things, but no conscious awareness of our own thoughts, memories or feelings? What advantage is there is that self-awareness?
Awareness and attention seem to be related and perhaps synonymous terms. In some way I can't put my finger on the sense of "I" is tied in to this attention, "my" awareness, what "I" am aware of, or experience.
Yes, I wonder whether a chimp has a sense of 'I', or a dog, or a snail. Does a plant have a sense of 'I', or is that self-awareness dependent on having a brain, or a brain that has a cortex, or a brain that has the particularly complex cortex of a human?

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by lfen, posted 05-10-2006 11:49 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by lfen, posted 05-11-2006 1:26 PM JavaMan has replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2320 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 160 of 167 (310970)
05-11-2006 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by iano
05-09-2006 8:41 AM


Re: Our guilty secret
If you are saying we cannot successfully deceive ourselves then you are again arguing in a circle. "I know I cannot deceive myself. How do you know? Because I know I cannot!" Some evidence is necessary to break out of that circle too
You're confusing my knowledge of my own internal state, which I can be certain of, with my claim to know that nobody can successfully deceive themselves.
I don't need external evidence to know when I'm deceiving myself, and you don't need external evidence to know that you are deceiving yourself. In fact, no external evidence could ever confirm that knowledge.

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by iano, posted 05-09-2006 8:41 AM iano has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2320 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 161 of 167 (310973)
05-11-2006 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by robinrohan
05-10-2006 11:26 AM


Re: Awareness
What do you mean by 'awareness'?
"Consciousness," perhaps. We have a private experience of it.
I wasn't clear whether Ifen was meaning "awarenss" in the sense of being conscious of one's own thought process, or in the sense of being conscious generally, i.e. of external things as well as internal things.
By the way, considering some of our previous discussions, you might be interested in this neuroscience article on free will I dug out for iano. It's well written and seems pretty up-to-date. The author also discusses several different theories in addition to his own.
Preconscious Free Will

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by robinrohan, posted 05-10-2006 11:26 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 162 of 167 (311044)
05-11-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by JavaMan
05-11-2006 8:14 AM


Re: Awareness
This experience was pretty spooky, even for a materialist like myself, but I think it's understandable without recourse to supernatural explanation.
I've a pretty good idea of your experience I think from a non traumatic setting. Years ago I worked in a preschool. Everynow and then I would be talking to another adult (staff or parent) when I would become aware I was holding this child, I call her Annie. I wouldn't remember picking her up and I'd even ask her "how you get here?" And she would laugh.
Finally, after some weeks of this I caught her trick. When I was deeply focused in conversation she approached to my side just within my peripheral vision and lifted her arms as children do when wishing to be picked up and I just responded by bending down and picking up while still deeply involved in the conversation. Only that time I finally caught what was going on.
I've also had the experience of falling deep into thought leaving a lecture and being surprised to find myself at the door of my apartment some blocks away with no memory of having walked there.
Yes, I wonder whether a chimp has a sense of 'I', or a dog, or a snail. Does a plant have a sense of 'I', or is that self-awareness dependent on having a brain, or a brain that has a cortex, or a brain that has the particularly complex cortex of a human?
So do I. I'm still trying to figure out what my sense of 'I' consists of. Is it an idea or sensation for example? It seems very elusive. UG Krishnamurti says that the result of his awakening was not that he had any answers but that he had no more questions.
Other accounts of awakenng sounds a bit similiar in that regard and it may be that brain function is changed so it's not so self reflective and that is experienced as a relief, as indeed it is claimed to be by Buddha and many since him. The Buddha said it was the result of the turning of consciousness in it's deepest seat. Bernadette Roberts also points to a massive change in function moving from the self to the no-self mode of living.
So perhaps these ancient Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists as well as contemporary awakeners are experiencing an unusual permanent alteration in the way the brain organizes it's functioning? I think that is one possibility.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by JavaMan, posted 05-11-2006 8:14 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 05-11-2006 6:31 PM lfen has replied
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 167 (311142)
05-11-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by lfen
05-11-2006 1:26 PM


Hooked on the sub-conscious?
So perhaps these ancient Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists as well as contemporary awakeners are experiencing an unusual permanent alteration in the way the brain organizes it's functioning? I think that is one possibility.
I don't think the occurance of what both yourself and Javaman describe are particularily unique - although they may not be commoner garden experiences. I'd have my own (rare enough) unusual occurances where the normal way in which I work is superceded by almost superhuman ability. I've had a few riding my motorcycle, where I find myself moving out of danger before any perceptible (according to my normal mode of riding) hints arrive. And then that which would have gotten me into real trouble happens - but I am no positioned on the road where I would normally have been - and pass by untroubled. No matter how hard I concetrate and take the environment in I cannot beat such 'pre-event insight'. If only I would know it would operate all the time so!
An relevant aside...
I read a book some time ago which talked about how the brain functions. And it seemed that the brain was an ever adapting organ. Habitual behaviour which seems almost cemented in place can be dropped just-like-that when one goes on holiday - the neural connections in the brain which are so established as to form habit at home (say tv watching patterns) are simply bypassed by the new environment and the habit disappears. If long enough away on holidays, then the neural connections dissolve. Arrival back home will see the old habit gone.
Back to the point...
Now if someone got curious and investigated why this superhuman ability arose and discovered techniques whereby it could be entered into in ways other than by 'accident' - and propagated the ability - then it is reasonable to suppose that new neural connections would be built up. And say the reason for this superhuman ability was actually sub-concious attentiveness spilling out so far that the conscious notices it. Then well-aimed techniques would draw the sub-conscious into playing a more central role than normal. Propagated (if the effect was deemed desirable) still further and the conscious (or self) would play less and less a role.
It is known that people can take action to break habits and so manipulate (or steer) the the normal functioning of the brain. Could "awakening" merely be the same kind of thing but on a much larger scale. Could awakening be the result of getting hooked on a drug called sub-conscious?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by lfen, posted 05-11-2006 1:26 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 165 by lfen, posted 05-11-2006 10:57 PM iano has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 164 of 167 (311239)
05-11-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
05-11-2006 6:31 PM


Re: Hooked on the sub-conscious?
Could awakening be the result of getting hooked on a drug called sub-conscious?
Sorry, but I've no idea what you mean by this.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 05-11-2006 6:31 PM iano has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 165 of 167 (311258)
05-11-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
05-11-2006 6:31 PM


Re: Hooked on the sub-conscious?
I don't think the occurance of what both yourself and Javaman describe are particularily unique - although they may not be commoner garden experiences. I'd have my own (rare enough) unusual occurances where the normal way in which I work is superceded by almost superhuman ability. I've had a few riding my motorcycle, where I find myself moving out of danger before any perceptible (according to my normal mode of riding) hints arrive. And then that which would have gotten me into real trouble happens - but I am no positioned on the road where I would normally have been - and pass by untroubled. No matter how hard I concetrate and take the environment in I cannot beat such 'pre-event insight'. If only I would know it would operate all the time so!
Javaman described his experience as strange. I certainly don't think they are unique or even uncommon just that it can feel strange when the brain reacts faster than consciousness. Can certainly happen in danger situations. I remember once when driving coming out of a train of thought wondering why I had taken my foot off the gas and put it on the brake. Then I noticed that several hundred yards down the road a car had pulled up to the road from a drive way. It is my habit to drive defensively and that was apparently very well engrained, just like I knew my way home even if not consciously thinking about it.
I've been reading the speculation on the function of consciousness since it seemingly doesn't iniate action but simply is aware of it.
Back to the point...
Now if someone got curious and investigated why this superhuman ability arose and discovered techniques whereby it could be entered into in ways other than by 'accident' - and propagated the ability - then it is reasonable to suppose that new neural connections would be built up. And say the reason for this superhuman ability was actually sub-concious attentiveness spilling out so far that the conscious notices it.
I have never used the adjective "superhuman" for awakening and I don't know why you are introducing it here.
In Buddhism there is a division of opinion that might in some ways parallel the works vs. faith arguments Christians having been having here. There are those who believe that enlightenment is gradually developed and there are those who think it's sudden. Sudden enlightenment is one of the defining assertions of the well known Zen (in China, Chan) sects of Buddhism.
lfen

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