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Author Topic:   The Fact of Death
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 167 (207604)
05-13-2005 1:05 AM


What I am wondering is how much the fact that one will die and cease to exist affects our lives here and now. Suppose one knew that one would continue to exist in some fashion forever. Would that matter? Would one conduct oneself differently?
My own view is that life would be quite different if one knew one was going to continue to live. There would be far less stress: what one failed to accomplish in, say, 1991, could be made up for in 2020.
Life is all about that motive of "accomplishment." Now it is true that there are different levels of accomplishment, which are perceived subjectively. What is accomplishment for one person may be failure for another.
I've lived my life, such as it is, and I am deeply disappointed in myself, but I feel that if I had some more time, I could make up for it. But there is no more time--at least not enough to matter.
This is the great tragedy of life, the fact that one must die. It is a puzzle for which there is no answer. Why was I put here on this earth? No reason. It just happened. Why have I had to suffer what I have suffered? No reason. It just happened. On the other hand, why have I felt some happiness from time to time? No reason. It just happened.
If there's anybody out there like me, they will know that they did not do what they should have done, did not live as they should have lived . . .
But if I had more time, I could correct those mistakes.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-12-2005 11:11 PM

Replies to this message:
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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 167 (207605)
05-13-2005 1:06 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics Forum.
This message has been edited by AdminBen, Friday, 2005/05/13 03:07 PM

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 3 of 167 (207614)
05-13-2005 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 1:05 AM


What I am wondering is how much the fact that one will die and cease to exist affects our lives here and now. Suppose one knew that one would continue to exist in some fashion forever. Would that matter? Would one conduct oneself differently?
I'll assume that "some fashion" suggests a non-physical manner of survival. That way, I can avoid talking about how, for example, cultures would change if people could live indefinitely (but still physical)
If there's anybody out there like me, they will know that they did not do what they should have done, did not live as they should have lived . . .
I think the most important thing that would change, is that I would not look so hard for "meaning" in life. If I always lived, ... somehow I feel that I could accept life more at face-value, that IT IS. What about you?
If I could accept life more at face-value, I would be more child-like. Many say I am kid-like, but that's via appearance or behavior, not because of innocence. My mind would be quieter.
Assuming I change from physical to non-physical, I'd continue to put a premium on experience and knowledge, and focus less on possessions.
But if I had more time, I could correct those mistakes.
May I ask, what kinds of mistakes? The mistakes that I regret are the ones that I cannot fix. Maybe it is because I still feel young enough that I have time to work through the "fixable" mistakes still.
For example, I cannot fix how I hurt my ex-girlfriend. Or how I missed my youngest brother's childhood by being away from home. Or the birthdays where I didn't send my family a card. No matter how long I, or anybody else lives, those experiences stay. They matter. No matter how much I change, no matter what I do to compensate, those experiences will always affect those people.
This is the great tragedy of life, the fact that one must die. It is a puzzle for which there is no answer. Why was I put here on this earth? No reason. It just happened. Why have I had to suffer what I have suffered? No reason. It just happened. On the other hand, why have I felt some happiness from time to time? No reason. It just happened.
I'm not sure if these comments you made are part of your topic, or if you want to stick only to the questions you asked at the top of the post.
However, given the ambiguity, I will take the opportunity to reply. I think this is the curse of our minds, in two ways.
First, I think it is our capability for abstract reasoning that drives us* to search (and strongly desire) explanation, reason, purpose behind everything. Some people find God this way, others can accept, both rationally and emotionally, the lack of an answer, and some of us simply fail to accept.
Secondly, I think this is the curse of our (self?-)consciousness. I would ascribe some influence of this thought to lfen (nice to see you lfen). Consciousness, in the way you and I (I am assuming) have it, is a divider. It makes you and I "appear to be" separate. Furthermore, it makes you and your children "appear to be" separate beings (note that I don't have children, I might be way off here).
But this doesn't have to be. Your life doesn't have to end with you. It can continue through others. It may feel like your life ends when you die because of your consciousness. But, as many describe (usually via poetry or art, often when close ones die), those who die "live on" in the lives of others. If we can take such a perspective, if we can truly feel that our life doesn't end when our ability to have consciousness does, then maybe your thought changes. Maybe you CAN fix your mistakes and the things you regret... not with your own hands, but via the hands of those who will survive you. You can affect the movement and behavior of hands, just like you can affect the movement and behavior of their own. And not just one generation... your imprint can extend beyond.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 1:05 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by lfen, posted 05-13-2005 2:33 AM Ben! has not replied

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 167 (207617)
05-13-2005 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 1:05 AM


The mistakes of the past are lessons to help you in the future. Death is part of life. All that I hope for when I die is to feel like I made a difference.
This message has been edited by Rand Al'Thor, 05-13-2005 02:22 AM

If ten thousand persons with Ph.D.'s say porn does not harm kids this means they are secret pedophiles and brazen liars.
-Willowtree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 1:05 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 5 of 167 (207623)
05-13-2005 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Ben!
05-13-2005 1:56 AM


Secondly, I think this is the curse of our (self?-)consciousness. I would ascribe some influence of this thought to lfen (nice to see you lfen). Consciousness, in the way you and I (I am assuming) have it, is a divider.
Ben,
I remember when you first showed up here and now I return to find you an admin! Very nice to see you again. I look forward to reading your thoughts on free will. I've found an interesting Blog on the subject I've been perusing by the Inveterate Bystander:  Mind Shadows: Free Will
I suppose I would put it that it's the identification of consciousness with the organism that is the source of the division or the illusion of a self separate from the arising of the total universe. In Buddhism all that arises or is born must pass away or die. Only the birthless never dies. The death that we fear may be our salvation, which releases us from our dream of separation. This of course is the goal of Tibetan Buddhism, to awaken at death to the "ground luminosity" of primordial consciousness.
Looks like I'll be around for a little while at least.
lfen

the great globe itself, yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve; and,
like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a rack behind. We are
such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a
sleep. -- Shakespeare, The Tempest, Act IV

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Ben!, posted 05-13-2005 1:56 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 11:54 AM lfen has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 167 (207734)
05-13-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by lfen
05-13-2005 2:33 AM


Thanks, Ben and Ifen, for your intelligent responses to my rather incoherent and unanswerable post.
But the fact that a topic is unanswerable never kept me from answering it!
I think the knowledge of Death makes us very time-conscious: we don't want to waste a single minute of our precious, limited time. Of course we do waste plenty of time, but we feel guilty about it.
Another point: We lead our lives with the object of achieving a position of safety. Later it begins to dawn upon us, with growing terror, that safety is impossible. The Bad Guy is going to get you sooner or later.
Now you would think that, having finally realized that safety is impossible, we would stop worrying about being safe. But that realization doesn't change us, for some reason.
If I could get beyond this safety-consciousness, that would be some sort of breakthrough, I believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by lfen, posted 05-13-2005 2:33 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by lfen, posted 05-13-2005 1:10 PM robinrohan has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 7 of 167 (207758)
05-13-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 11:54 AM


Robin,
Awareness of death is an important issue. I think folks also may distract themselves from it and ignore it. I know that some schools of Buddhism use meditating on mortality and death as a way to motivate aspirants. It may not be knowledge of death per se but rather what our response is to that knowledge.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 11:54 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 2:21 PM lfen has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 167 (207784)
05-13-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by lfen
05-13-2005 1:10 PM


Ifen
"some schools of Buddhism use meditating on mortality and death as a way to motivate aspirants."
Ifen, how would meditating on death "motivate" someone, and in what sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by lfen, posted 05-13-2005 1:10 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 05-13-2005 3:47 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 9 of 167 (207845)
05-13-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 2:21 PM


Re: Ifen
Robin,
I've got to leave for work shortly but the motivation is to give up attachment and to look deeply into one's nature, that is to start meditating earnestly instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of "wine, woman, and song"!
There is a form of practise in Tibetan Buddhism performed in the charnal ground and the Buddha seems to have taught a form of meditation where one regards ones body as dead and rotting. This is also a preparation for the inevitable. In the Bardo Thodol the teachings mistranslated as the Tibetan book of the dead, the practise is to be prepared to enter the clear light of one's original nature rather than cling to sense pleasures etc.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 2:21 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 05-13-2005 10:18 PM lfen has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 167 (207880)
05-13-2005 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 1:05 AM


robinrohan
My own view is that life would be quite different if one knew one was going to continue to live. There would be far less stress: what one failed to accomplish in, say, 1991, could be made up for in 2020.
This is probably a false impression since if you had all the time in the world to get around to it then in all likelihood it would never get done unless you happen to have discipline for it in the first place.
This is the great tragedy of life, the fact that one must die.
"The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss."
Thomas Carlyle
The clock is always ticking for each of us.It is certain we die in this life so no matter your belief you need to deal with it only once.Just think,only one instant over thousands or millions of moments in a life.It is my observation that in life you get what you focus on.If you are waiting for life to treat you differently than everybody else I think you need to kick yourself in the ass.
A full life is one where you are involved to the hilt with those causes that give you enjoyment and that ease the burden for others.
If there's anybody out there like me, they will know that they did not do what they should have done, did not live as they should have lived .
Here is an excercise that may make you realize the meaning of the term "heart".Go to your local hospitals and see if they have a ward dealing with babies born of mothers whose drug habit has led to a condition in the child that is terminal.In certain places there are programs to allow volunteers to come into the wards to hold and rock the children that they may live their short lives comforted by human touch and voice.If after helping one of these infants cope till they die I bet you will not cry about the "unfairness" of life that you lived.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 05-13-2005 1:05 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by robinrohan, posted 05-14-2005 4:36 PM sidelined has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 167 (207916)
05-13-2005 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by lfen
05-13-2005 3:47 PM


Re: Ifen
quote:
From your Message 5 In Buddhism all that arises or is born must pass away or die. Only the birthless never dies. The death that we fear may be our salvation, which releases us from our dream of separation. This of course is the goal of Tibetan Buddhism, to awaken at death to the "ground luminosity" of primordial consciousness.
And from your Message 9...the practise is to be prepared to enter the clear light of one's original nature rather than cling to sense pleasures etc.
I've always found Buddhist language obscure to the point of obfuscating. Do you feel you understand what "the clear light of one's original nature" or the "'ground luminosity' of primordial consciousness" means well enough to trust that that's what you will experience after death? Or do these things imply experience at all? And if not, how is it different from the idea that death is just the cessation of all consciousness that so many atheists believe in?
Buddhism also recognizes hells, I understand, a variety of hells or places of torment, or some versions of Buddhism do, suggesting that death isn't always a happy thing or a "salvation." Isn't there some idea that it takes quite a bit of work to achieve the degree of detachment that frees you from such consequences?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 05-13-2005 3:47 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 05-14-2005 3:59 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 167 (207918)
05-13-2005 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
05-13-2005 1:05 AM


Some questions
Questions I'd like to see addressed: What is death? {EDIT: meaning the reason for death, the cause of death, why we die. What are the different views of death? Is it pretty universally understood to be a natural thing, as in, all things that are born die. How many religions, traditions, cultures, etc. believe that there is an afterlife? How common throughout history and across cultures is the idea that death is the end of consciousness, as in the lights go out and that's that, no more person, no more anything -- or is this pretty much a modern notion? For those who believe in an afterlife, how is it possible to know anything about what it will be like? Etc.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-14-2005 02:37 AM

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 13 of 167 (207959)
05-14-2005 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
05-13-2005 10:18 PM


Re: Ifen
Faith,
You've asked some good, but difficult to answer in brief, questions. This book which I found in my library has an interesting paragraph where the author narrates his near death experience as he was experincing a massive heart attack. He survived though his heart had to be restarted over 70 times. The book is really about his recovery and his discovery that he needed to eat a higher fat diet to keep his cholestral down. I mention the book because he mentions finding himself in a light space that he recognized as where he had always been. The realization that he couldn't be with his fiance led him to struggle to stay alive rather than accept the peace he found in this clear light space. This was not an after death experience though. This could be some dying brain process and the Tibetan could have explored it in someway. He gives no indications of knowing anything about Buddhism but his discription of his experience is very consistent with the Tibetan teachings.
Eat fat, be healthy : understanding the heartstopper gene and when a low-fat diet can kill you
Author: Bayan, Matthew J.
Publisher, Date: New York : Scribner/Simon & Schuster, Inc., c2000.
Popular Buddhism has a number of different "realms" including hells, heavens, and Pure Buddhist lands. The idea is that merit leads to rebirth in heavens or better Pure and bad actions leads to suffering in hells but in all cases the price is eventually paid. I think this is something taught to help people with life.
My interest is in what is currently being called in English the non dual teachings. The Buddha was a reformer of Vedic Hinduism. He said that he came to teach that life was suffering and that there was a way to be free of that suffering. He refused to answer questions about whether people survived death, or if there was or was not a God. Popular Buddhism does have deities and yet some schools of Buddhism deny there is a God. The non dual school in Hinduism founded by Shankaracharya believes there is a God. I don't see this as any essential conflict but two compatible ways of explaining the same state of affairs.
The obscurity of Buddhist language results from a number of things. First it is trying to describe something that can't really be described so it ends up trying to point beyond language to something that is non verbal. There are also issues with translation and many western philosophies use language in a way that can be very obscure also.
For westerners I keep recommending Bernadette Roberts book AN EXPERIENCE OF NO SELF. Bernadette is an American raised in a Catholic family who spent some years as a contemplative nun in a convent. She achieved a state she describes as unitive which is to say she had surrendered her will to the will of God. She left and raised a family.
One day meditating in a small chapel her mind became more silent than it ever had before. The closing of the chapel brought her out of her state and she went home to fix dinner. When I read her book I was excited because she was writing of the Buddha's experience but using modern language. She herself finally read some about the Buddha and felt he was someone who had the same experience she did.
The non dual teacher Wayne Liquorman and his teacher Ramesh talk about the illusion of a separate self as the divine hypnosis. For a few people that sense of being a separate self is dispelled and they experience themselves a part of the total functioning of the universe.
This is a state without a subject hence without an object and therefore impossible to accurately model with language that uses nouns, verbs, and subject object sentence structure. What the Buddha essentially taught was that this awakening also means there is no one to suffer. This is the nirvana Buddhism talks about and it is nivana and not heaven that is the end of Buddhism. The body and mind come into existence and therefor pass out of existence. Buddhism sees there is an uncreated that never having been born never dies. It is prior.
Wayne Liquorman who is in a Hindu lineage is more specific. He and his teacher teach that, "Consciousness is all there is. All there is is consciousness." I don't think this is accurately described as pantheism though I can see how it can be mistaken for it.
This is all I feel up to writing tonight. It's bed time for me.
I particulary recommend Roberts' book as being the most accessible on this subject.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 05-13-2005 10:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 05-14-2005 7:26 PM lfen has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 167 (208117)
05-14-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by sidelined
05-13-2005 7:07 PM


Sidelined
"If after helping one of these infants cope till they die I bet you will not cry about the "unfairness" of life that you lived."
Who's crying about unfairness? Anything I've done badly or failed to do is my own fault.
Now, I do think that the fact of death is tragic but hardly "unfair." In order for it to be unfair, I would have to imagine some God or other that has treated me unfairly. It's not reasonable to suggest that mindless nature is "unfair." I might as well call a tree "unfair" because it drops its leaves in the fall and I have to rake them up.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-14-2005 03:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by sidelined, posted 05-13-2005 7:07 PM sidelined has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 167 (208203)
05-14-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by lfen
05-14-2005 3:59 AM


Re: Ifen
I think I may have read Bernadette Roberts' book during the period I was seeking God years ago. I don't remember her name but I remember a book by an ex-nun who had Buddhist type experiences.
I don't get what is ATTRACTIVE about these vague notions of what comes after death. Or what makes them believable to anybody. I find the idea of a sort of merging into an indistinguishable oneness as a "no-self" not the slightest bit attractive, bliss and peace and the works. And as for believability, why trust anybody's near-death experiences at all to point to anything real? There isn't just one kind people have for one thing, and what is there about an experience that makes it believable? Isn't everybody here always railing about how objective fact is needed to give us a solid ground for anything we take to be true? So how can anyone believe such experiences are something to be sought?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 05-14-2005 3:59 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by lfen, posted 05-15-2005 1:36 AM Faith has replied

  
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