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Author Topic:   Wyatt Museum - Archaeology and Noah's Ark II
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 62 (317625)
06-04-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 2:51 PM


Tennessee R writes:
And I am sorry for the accusations last night.
No problem. I shoot fast and I duck when somebody shoots back.
... if it walks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it pecks like a duck, it's neck is the same lenght as a duck, it's feathers have been analyzed and appear to be duck's feathers, local tradition says that they think it is a duck,
Then it just MIGHT BE a duck.
If it walks like a vampire, flies like a vampire, drinks blood like a vampire, has no reflection like a vampire, local tradition says that they think it is a vampire, then it just MIGHT BE a vampire.
But probably not.
The part about "it's feathers have been analyzed and appear to be duck's feathers" does not apply. None of the scientific studies directly link the artifact to Noah's ark in a duck-feather = duck-feather scenario.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 2:51 PM Tennessee R has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4212 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 17 of 62 (317626)
06-04-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 3:00 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
TR said writes:
Please give sources, evidence, at least tell us what you are talking about.
war site writes:
Ron Wyatt, Dave Fassold and John Baumgardner surveyed the site with metal detectors and located a specimen which had the appearance of "wrought iron."
It was reported by Dave Fassold that the semi -quantitative analysis of the iron samples, which was arranged by John Baumgardner, found them to contain from 60 percent to 91.84 percent FE2O3.
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark-06.htm
So why does John Baumgardner make such statements as:
quote:
This ridge actually outcrops at the surface over about 40% of the length of the site. The ridge accounts for the stability of the site relative to the surrounding terrain as well as for its distinctive boatlike shape. The rock material that comprises the ridge matches that in nearby outcrops, especially that in the roadcut above the visitor's center. Furthermore, the material Ron claims is petrified wood is nothing but igneous rock of basaltic composition. We have analyzed many samples of it here at our laboratory, and Ron is aware of these analyses.
quote:
1. Did you witness evidence of the metal rivets in this "igneous rock?"
--none whatsoever.
I have seen pictures of these rivets and wonder, based on what you state above, if they're from another site or from that location. Do you have any comments on that?
--I am almost 100% certain that Ron 'planted' them.
2. As a layman, it sure looks like petrified wood that he found (and I've seen a sample of it in Nashville). Is it your contention that Ron Wyatt fabricated this evidence or that he brought it from another location?
--Yes. I have spent weeks at this site and never once saw any sample that even remotely resembled petrified wood.
3. Are the "beams" (or "rib timbers") which I have seen in the video and on pictures not actual formations there at the site?
--The dark, weather-resistant rocks are genuine parts of the formation. They are of igneous composition. Calling them "beams" or "rib timbers" is something that comes from (Wyatt's) human imagination.
4. Do you believe that the object at that site, which you yourself have tested, is a natural phenomenom, or is it man-made? (I ask you this as an expert in your field.)
--it is the natural product of a geological process (a catastrophic mud slide)
And if so, were there not metal rivets throughout the object?
--absolutely not!
Letter from John Baumgardner regarding Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat
Are we to conclude that JB is lying? Deluded?
In some ways the Ark is one of the more believable of Wyatt's scams - the Blood of Jesus one always gets me giggling - I had tears of laughter rolling down my face the first time I read it.
Edited by CK, : Fixed dbcode error
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 3:00 PM Tennessee R has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 3:26 PM CK has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 62 (317628)
06-04-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 2:35 PM


Re: Rivet Analysis Finally
RAZD, the marine nodules that you refer to, they don't have anywhere near the same quantity, do they?
They are a natural artifact, one of many ways such things can be formed. Similar can be formed by volcanic action when magma balls are thrown from the caldera area.
The point is that nothing here really shows these to be rivets and NOT some natural formation.
It should be easy to refute them being some rounded natural formation -- a cross-section that shows a clear flattened head, shaft like body and flattened tail of a rivet.
If it looks like a ball, walks like a ball and talks like a ball, then it is most likely that it is a ball like structure, and NOT a rivet.
And, these marine nodules are just that, marine, correct? Found primarily on the ocean floor?
So? there are seashells on the tops of mountains too. There are geological reasons for marine sediments, seashells and marine fossils to be found on mountains, consistent with the evidence we have of plate tectonics.
And this does not even begin to address the issue of the verification of the rivets as objects found in the vicinity of the purported ark formation.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 2:35 PM Tennessee R has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 3:39 PM RAZD has replied

  
Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 62 (317629)
06-04-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
06-04-2006 2:51 PM


Re: evidence of ??? what?
RAZD writes:
My, what a compilation of anecdotal "evidence"
Far from it. These are just a few 'facts'. Actual facts that cannot be debated by anyone reasonable. Everyone here kept finding problems with the scientific data, I just gave a few undisputable facts. Never called it evidence.
It is in the mountains of Ararat.
It is large and boat-shaped, and on land.
It is 300 REC long.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by nator, posted 06-05-2006 9:25 AM Tennessee R has not replied

  
Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 62 (317636)
06-04-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by CK
06-04-2006 3:05 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
CK, I could just as easily say that John Baumgardner is an incredible snake-oil salesman liar.
Did JB see Ron plant any rivets? Then how can he be 'almost 100% ceartain'?
If we conclude that Wyatt is deluded, lying, because he gives you ideas, even SOME evidence in the form of analytical reports,
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark-08.htm
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark-12.htm
Then I suppose I could just as easily conclude John Baumgardner is deluded, lying, for not giving any evidence whatsoever to his spectacular claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 3:05 PM CK has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34059
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 62 (317639)
06-04-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 3:00 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
Huck Finn is a great example. Like the Bible it is meant to teach as well as entertain. Yes, it is fiction. Much of the Bible is the same, fiction designed to teach a lesson.
As to Ron Wyatt and his so called evidence, I think you first need to understand what evidence is and how such things must be approached in science. One thing you MUST do in science is present both the evidence that supports your position as well as the evidence that does not support or even refutes your position.
For example, concerning the rivets, if Ron had been doing real science he would present all of the possibile explanations for their source. This is an error that is consistant throughout the evidence that has been presented here at EvC in support of WAR. Other examples are the so called calf altar, the wheels, the alleged "guard shack", the examples you mention of tombstones and place names.
Each of these has been discussed here at EvC at some depth and over many threads.
Please understand, the criticism of Ron's claimed finds is not anti-Christian. many of us are Christians, I have been one for well over 60 years, nor is it an attack on the Bible. rather it is a criticism of what Ron considered science or evidence and of some peoples interpretations of the Bible.
Just like Evolution, this is not a religious conflict.
Here are a few links to threads, some with JimSDA who was also an employee at WAR IIRC.
Message 254
Message 100
Message 1
Message 1
Message 1

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 3:00 PM Tennessee R has not replied

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4212 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 22 of 62 (317643)
06-04-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
06-04-2006 3:28 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
quote:
Here are a few links to threads, some with JimSDA who was also an employee at WAR IIRC.
Oh no - Richard is not some "lackey" - Richard Rives is the boss - he's the president of WAR inc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-04-2006 3:28 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 3:58 PM CK has replied

  
Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 62 (317644)
06-04-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
06-04-2006 3:12 PM


Re: Rivet Analysis Finally
RAZD writes:
So? there are seashells on the tops of mountains too.
Regardless if he planted it, or not, forget the 'rivet' for a moment.
Have these 'marine nodules' been found on mountains? Simple question still not answered.
And should you come back with one instance, I might expect the photos, strata data, elemental analysis, cross-sections, and a sworn statement from at least three witnesses.
Or else we all could conclude that someone stole a rivet from Noah's Ark and planted it on another mountain, couldn't we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2006 3:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 5043 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 24 of 62 (317648)
06-04-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 12:49 PM


Re: Welcome T R
Hi T R,
I see from a reply to another poster that you are aware that nothing you posted 'proves' that this is Noah's Ark. It may 'imply' that it is but it doesn't prove it. It is the same with any theory about a past historical event, no historical theories are ever proven, just as no scientific theory is ever proven.
So the best that Ron could claim is that "there is abundant evidence to suggest that this MAY be the Noah's Ark mentioned in the intertwined Flood narratives found in the Book of Genesis".
But, even if this is Noah's Ark, it doesn't mean that anything else in the Bible is true.
It was a pity that Ron had no training in archaeology, history, or theology because he could have collected and presented his evidence in a far more scholarly manner.
He could also have saved himself a lot of time if he had been aware, as every first year uni student is aware, that the Bible doesn't claim that the Exodus group crossed the Red Sea, it claims the crossing was at the Sea of Reeds, and since the Red Sea (Aqaba according to Ron) has no reeds than it doesn't matter if Ron found the entire 18th dynasty at Aqaba it is irrelevant to the biblical tale.
I just like to remind people that as far as history is concerned, nothing is ever proven, we do not have all the information about any event to come to an absolute conclusion. I find that Ron made some very amateur mistakes when it came to writing up his findings, and in an email conversation with R Rives I found that his understanding of archaeology and history was about as poor as Ron's.
I don't know if Ron was sincere, insane,or just a crook, it doesn't really bother me, but I do know that what he presented was neither history or archaeology.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 12:49 PM Tennessee R has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 4:04 PM Brian has replied

  
Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 62 (317652)
06-04-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by CK
06-04-2006 3:37 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
Wait, I must have missed something here. When did we start discussing Richard Rives?
What CK stated is true, he is President of Wyatt Archaeological Research.
JimSDA was previously the curator of a previous Wyatt Museum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 3:37 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 4:03 PM Tennessee R has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4212 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 26 of 62 (317653)
06-04-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 3:58 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
Oh my mistake - you must be David then.
Because you know - Richard Rives talks about how he moved to Tennessee and over at Wikipedia you claim:
quote:
I am the one who put this sentance in. I have been in the meetings with the IAA when they issued us (WAR) permits, so I know. It is not neccesary to have a degree in archaeology to excavate in Israel. You must have a qualified archaeologist work with you. And we do. Issued by IAA themselves.
So from what we know about the people on the digs - connected to WAR, lives in Tennessee, has R for a surname...
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 3:58 PM Tennessee R has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 4:21 PM CK has replied

  
Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 62 (317654)
06-04-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
06-04-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Welcome T R
Hello, Brian.
Yes, I suppose it is as you stated, no historical theories are ever proven, just as no scientific theory is ever proven.
Brian writes:
But, even if this is Noah's Ark, it doesn't mean that anything else in the Bible is true.
True, but it would mean that Noah's Ark was true. But if Noah's Ark was true, wouldn't you be even slightly more open to something else in the Bible being true?
Brian writes:
It was a pity that Ron had no training in archaeology, history, or theology because he could have collected and presented his evidence in a far more scholarly manner.
You are very right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 06-04-2006 3:48 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 62 (317655)
06-04-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by CK
06-04-2006 4:03 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
I never said I wasn't Richard Rives. Or did I?
And David who? Rives?
Possibly he is JimSDA re-incarnated?
After all, Jim may be a fake name.
Richrd Rives, Ron Wyatt, JimSDA, their families, all the museums, Wyatt Archaeological Research, and the Country Music Hall of Fame.
Every one of these are in Tennessee.
Actually all we know about the fellow posting this message is that he has R for a Username, and at least likes Tennessee (Or dislikes it so much, he decides to use it for at least all sceptical usernames).
But you are free to guess. Maybe someday I'll feel like telling the world who this associate of WAR is.
Sorry for being slightly cynical, but my name really isn't important.
People can only judge you, mock you, hurt you, when they can associate you with a name. Someone they don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 4:03 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 4:39 PM Tennessee R has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4212 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 29 of 62 (317659)
06-04-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tennessee R
06-04-2006 4:21 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
quote:
Actually all we know about the fellow posting this message is that he has R for a Username, and at least likes Tennessee (Or dislikes it so much, he decides to use it for at least all sceptical usernames).
Oh we know much more than that, the internet is a wonderful place full of fingerprints - give me ten minutes and we can see a work from the casebook of Sherlock Knight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 4:21 PM Tennessee R has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tennessee R, posted 06-04-2006 4:50 PM CK has replied

  
Tennessee R
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 62 (317666)
06-04-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by CK
06-04-2006 4:39 PM


Re: On the Flood and the Ark
Twenty Five minutes.
Sorry, just couldn't resist.
You don't have to do this, though. Unless it would ease your curiosity.
You can call me Mycroft Holmes.
Edited by Tennessee R, : No reason given.
Edited by Tennessee R, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 4:39 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by CK, posted 06-04-2006 5:19 PM Tennessee R has replied

  
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