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Author | Topic: "Only have ourselves to blame" NO! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
The Dread Dormammu Inactive Member |
I have to admit I get angry when I see Brits telling americans that "we only have ourselves to blame" for getting Bush elected.
It's not true, we only have OTHER americans to blame. I certainly am not to blame I voted against Bush and tried my damndest to convince everyone I knew to vote for Kerry. My signifigant other took a leave of absece from her job so she could work 14 hour days campaigning for Kerry. American people elected Bush (sadly) but specific Americans can only be held responsible if THEY voted for bush.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
only about 1/6th of the population voted for him. he's not been elected by a majority of anything.
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The Dread Dormammu Inactive Member |
He's not been elected by a majority of anything. Well he was elected by the majority of voters and that's what mattered. Or are you claiming that there was voter fraud?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i voted for kerry.
so no, i do not have myself to blame.
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PecosGeorge Member (Idle past 6894 days) Posts: 863 From: Texas Joined: |
my seven-year old grandson and I voted for Bush.
however, I did not vote for Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, etc etc or any other president ever elected who was close to or similar to Bush...and they are/were all close to and similar to Bush. This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 11-20-2004 07:59 PM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
yes i am but that's not the point. there was one city with about 200 people that had 5000 votes for bush...
no larger proofs have made it though
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The Dread Dormammu Inactive Member |
my seven-year old grandson and I voted for Bush. How did he vote for bush if he's underage?
however, I did not vote for Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, etc etc or any other president ever elected who was close to or similar to Bush...and they are/were all close to and similar to Bush. Huh? I don't know what you are talking about here. The larger question is; are we responsible for our contries actions even if we disagree/take action to change the direction our country is heading? This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 11-21-2004 03:22 AM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
my seven-year old grandson and I voted for Bush. no, no voter fraud there!
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contracycle Inactive Member |
I find it bizarre that Americans, so quick to "bring" democracy to feoreign lands, are also so quick to disclaim the results of their own democratic process.
You voted. You engaged in a legal, formal process for sleecting your head of state. How can you not be respnsible for the result? So you backed the wrong horse; so you didn;t get the particular representative you wanted. How does this absolve you of responsibility? You made your agrument, if you participated at all, and you lost. Thats all. you cannot disclaim the result merely becuase you do not like it without refuting democracy in toto.
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4571 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
quote:Disclaim? If you mean to claim it is invalid, that is only due to the emerging evidence of fraud. If you are just talking about the weeping and gnashing of teeth heard from Kerry supporters, it is because of the collective conviction that Bush and his supporters are mucking up the future for all of us. Let me see if I can answer your (rhetorical) questions. Apologies for chopping and forming your post, but you basically answered them yourself, as illustrated by some re-ordering.quote:And, quote:Yes, Kerry (and Nader, etc.) voters lost the contest, according to the official counts. We are the losers. Thus, the outcome was determined by the actions of others. quote:Because the end result of our actions, had we succeeded, would have been a different outcome than the one which occurred. In other words, we were thwarted by the actions of others. It's fairly simple. quote:The responsibility for the outcome is borne by those who enacted it. Those who voted for the "loser" did not enact this outcome. Free speech means that the right to say "I told you so" is the consolation prize of those who "backed the wrong horse", especially if the other horse turns out to be lame. It is also the mechanism by which the electorate is reminded to hold officials and their political parties accountable for undesirable performances. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but it needs some work. Democracy was founded on dissent and the right of people to argue, whine, and publicly bitch about disagreeable conditions wrought by their governments. If you think that people decrying the outcome of an election is anything like people speaking out against the process itself, think again. There is a very large difference between the two. I despise the victor in this election but I adore the process that put him there. I don't much respect those who voted him in, but I'm at war (following orders from the man I voted against) to maintain their way of life and their right to do just that.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: Were the people who voted against Hitler in the Parliment to blame for his rise to power? No. Were they responsible for WWII, the Holocaust, etc.? No. I am not comparing Hitler to Bush, just trying to illustrate that throughout history those who stood against a candidate were not held responsible for the actions of that candidate afterwards.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 498 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Ya, but the rest of the world made their lives into a living hell even if some of them didn't vote for him.
The question is can the most powerful nation on Earth fight the rest of the world and still win the war? Hate world. Revenge soon!
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: Nope. Not without a tenfold increase in trained troops. The US Army is not currently able to cope with more than one armed conflict like that in Iraq due to the "fewer, lighter, and faster" philosophy that they currently have. The War on Terror requires alliances of military, financial, and moral support.
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4571 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
I think it's funny that so many people confuse the war in Iraq with the "War on Terror".
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contracycle Inactive Member |
Zephyr this is illogical:
quote: Yes I already agreed you didn;t get the SPECIFIC outcome you wanted. But, if I go into a store intending to haggle for a product becuase I only want to pay X rather than Y, that is merely my desire. If I don't get my way and have to pay Y I cannot then claim that it is the other persons fault, or that there was some culpability, or that the transaction was unfair, or dishonest, or innapripriate in any way. And the person who sold me the good, and everyone else in the community, can hold me to the contract I signed or whatever.
quote: Yes, you did. Its your democratic process - you perhaps didn't get the candidate you wanted, but it is on YOUR authority that there is a head of state at all and that he has the powers that he does.
quote: No, thats precisely the point I'm making - you CAN say you are not happy, you cannot say you are not RESPONSIBLE. Of course you are responsible, who else put him in the whitehouse, Martians? If you say that ONLY his supporters were 'responsible', then you are essentially withdrawing support for the legitimacy of the office. Part of the democratic social contract is that you are held to decisions you don't like. Your were a dsirect perciticpant in a formal process, you are REPOSNSIBLE for that outcome even if you did not favour the outcome.
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