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Author Topic:   ZeitGeist
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 136 of 185 (429831)
10-21-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 8:30 PM


genesis 5 ≠ prophecy
  1. Adam = Man
  2. Seth = Appointed
  3. Enosh = Mortal
  4. Kenan = Sorrow
  5. Mahalalel = The Blessed God
  6. Yared = Shall Come Down
  7. Enoch = Teaching
  8. Methuselah = His Death Shall Bring
  9. Lamech = The Despairing
  10. Noah = Rest
  1. adam = mankind
  2. shet = back. as in "ass." or the number 6.
  3. enosh = man. as in anashim. comes from "mortal."
  4. qeynan = possesion
  5. mahalalel = praise of god
  6. yared = descend
  7. chanok = dedicated
  8. metushelach = "man at arms"
  9. lamek = "power" (but similar to "fool")
  10. noach = rest
thaks for playing!
i really don't feel like going into it much more, but the rest of that post is of similar veracity. we can discuss it some other thread, however.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 8:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 137 of 185 (429833)
10-21-2007 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 10:42 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
No, you are confusing the canonization of the first Bible, not the individual documents.
No, not at all. The Bible wasn't canonized until around 400 AD, when individual churches started releasing their own canons, and then the "official" canonization was the Council of Trent in 1546.
The earliest gospels weren't written until around 100 AD, nearly 70 years after Jesus's supposed crucifixion in or around 33 AD.
What is your indisputable evidence that they were all dead?
Well, for one thing, we have stories of the martyrdoms of the disciples recorded in the Bible; it's usually a little suspicious when the putative author of a work records his own death.
But secondly it's just simply unreasonable to suggest that a human being living in the conditions of the First century could live to 100 or 120 or so, much less that 4 of them did it, and were still in a condition to write parts of one of the world's most important books. Even Shakespeare's prolific window of creativity was only about ten years wide.
So James, Jesus' brother, never met Jesus?
He never wrote any part of the Bible.
Peter never met Jesus?
Simon Peter is not the author of any part of the Bible. The two letters ascribed to him cannot be his, they're dated too late and they're not even written by the same person.
Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Paul had a vision of Jesus, he never met Jesus nor was he a part of his ministry.
Well, then I guess world war II and Vietnam vets should not write about their personal experiences.
They're free to write about whatever they like. Their recollections shouldn't be taken at face value, or (for instance) used to smear a Democratic presidential candidate on the basis of absolutely no corroborating physical evidence.
Crash, there is far more evidence that Jesus existed than almost any other human from antiquity, which only proves your bias.
What evidence? When you trace down anything supposedly known about Jesus, it all come back to the gospels, which weren't written until 70 years and later after his death.
That's not a lot of evidence. It's not nearly as much evidence as we have for any of the Roman leaders during the exact same time period, for whom thousands of independent sources corroborate existence. Every Roman coin with a Ceasar's face stamped on it is independent proof that there was such a Caesar.
But there's absolutely nothing about Jesus that you can't trace back to one of the four gospels - all of which were written nearly a century after the events that they detail. That's your great evidence?
How do you know that he never did any of the things in the Bible?
Some of the things he's claimed to have done are physical impossibilities, but again, you've failed to understand that the onus is on Christians to prove that those events happened, not on us to prove that they didn't. It's amazing how often you resort to the "prove us wrong" defense, but I suppose it's all that you ever have. You certainly have no evidence for your position.
What would multiple people lie about no one at all, which got them all murdered for?
What multiple people?
Did they all say the same thing because they had all read the same gospels? That's what I'm driving at. I could probably ask a dozen people to summarize some of the things that happen in Lord of the Rings, and because that's a popular work they could probably all tell me more or less the same thing. A Hobbit takes a magic ring to a volcano.
Does that prove the existence of Hobbits? Does that prove that Lord of the Rings is a true story? Of course not. The fact that everybody's knowledge about those events can be traced back to a single source - Tolkein's novels - proves that it's all Tolkein's invention. Similarly, since all accounts of Jesus can be traced back to the Gospels, it's obvious that the life of Jesus in the Gospels is a work of fiction, too.
How do you suppose a story like that could have taken off? What do you think precipitated it?
Why do people start religions, NJ? Why don't you ask L. Ron Hubbard? If you don't believe that someone can make up a religion for crass or cynical purposes - something that they know is false because they're the ones who made it up - and then have people believe it in all earnestness, just look at Scientology. It's a whole religion about spacemen being killed by a volcano, and now they're one of the largest religions in the US. It's absurd.
Its relevant to corroborating who he was and how he went on proving he was exactly what he said he was.
He didn't say he was anything. That's the problem. It's irrelevant to tell me what Jesus says in the Bible until you can prove those are actually Jesus's words, and you haven't even come close.
It's irrelevant to show me Bible prophecy fulfilled in the Bible unless you can prove that the Bible records actual events
And how, pray tell, were they going to do that when almost all of them were slaughtered at the time when they were repatriated?
Uh, what? If they were all slaughtered then how is there still an Israel?
I mean, there it is, NJ. You can go visit if you want. A whole country. It's there, I assure you. Obviously they weren't slaughtered; they survived to form their nation.
Who wanted it to be true?
Christians of the West. Do you think that they didn't help? That they had nothing to do with the creation of Israel as a nation?
Why on Earth would you think that?
I either win big or lose nothing.
You'll have wasted a lot of the only time you'll ever have, but if you're not concerned about that, I can't make that any more important to you.
And if this all starts happening within your lifetime?
I'm sure it'll "all happen within my lifetime," just like it happened during my parents lifetime, just like it happened during the lifetime of people living in 100, and 1000, and 1600, and every significant year since people started reading the Bible.
I'm sure that events will happen that the Bible appears to "predict." That's the beauty of vague prophecy, nearly anything can happen to fulfill it.
No, its between the week, and the week is representative of years.
That doesn't make a lick of sense, sorry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 10:42 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 185 (429835)
10-22-2007 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by crashfrog
10-21-2007 10:07 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
NJ, do you have a reading problem? Like, a learning disability? Your paraphrase bears absolutely no relationship to the paragraphs you've quoted.
Are you kidding me??? Are you really trying to fight a fight you lost the second you started typing away? Crash, beyond this, it doesn't even dignify a response.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by crashfrog, posted 10-21-2007 10:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by crashfrog, posted 10-22-2007 12:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 185 (429836)
10-22-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Dr Adequate
10-21-2007 10:17 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
the answer you're implying, yes, that's rubbish.
How so?
quote:
What was "snide" about it? I was just illustrating a point.
By cherry-picking one atheist saying something stupid and pretending that that's the basis for all atheism.
Which is, indeed, snide.
Well, ain't the kettle calling the pot black. You indict any and all creationists, including their mothers, and their mothers mother. So don't talk to me about cherry picking when you live under the cherry tree. Thanks.
Secondly, like I said, using Huxley as a reference was a direct reflection of Spektical, to whom I was answering.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2007 10:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2007 7:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 185 (429838)
10-22-2007 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Dr Adequate
10-21-2007 10:18 PM


Re: Infinity
You may recall that I am, by profession, a mathematician.
Are you also familiar with the phrase "bitch-slapping"? 'Cos that could happen to you.
Thanks for the heads up.

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2007 10:18 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 185 (429840)
10-22-2007 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Dr Adequate
10-21-2007 10:29 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
How much more clear could it possibly be?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2007 10:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2007 7:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 142 of 185 (429843)
10-22-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Hyroglyphx
10-22-2007 12:00 AM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Are you kidding me???
I'm not at all kidding, NJ. I literally can't see any relationship between your paraphrase and the article, and it makes me think that mathematical terminology like "natural" and "real" mislead you, because you really did not understand what that article was trying to tell you.
"Natural" and "real" are sets of numbers defined with certain mathematical qualities, NJ. They don't appear in that article to tell you that "actual infinities" are something physical that doesn't exist, or whatever. As the article clearly explains, "actual infinites" are things like real numbers and natural numbers, which are really and actually infinite.
You completely misunderstood a complicated mathematical concept that used terminology that you misunderstood. There's nothing really shameful in that. Regardless, though, you're wrong - there are such things as actual infinities, and the Wiki article gave you two examples - real and natural numbers.
Dr. Adequate, a PhD mathematician, all but told you the exact same thing. Are you saying you know more about mathematics than an expert does?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2007 12:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 185 (429857)
10-22-2007 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Spektical
10-21-2007 6:15 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Its interesting how easy it is for we humans to believe that our perceptions, discoveries and potential can go on forever yet we scoff when given the idea of a God who has gone on forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Spektical, posted 10-21-2007 6:15 PM Spektical has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 144 of 185 (429870)
10-22-2007 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dr Adequate
10-21-2007 12:31 PM


Robin Hood definitely existed...
I've created a new topic for this here, rather than derail this thread. I'd be interested to know what support you have for this, as I understood he was entirely fictional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2007 12:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Spektical, posted 10-22-2007 9:54 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Spektical
Member (Idle past 5976 days)
Posts: 119
Joined: 10-16-2007


Message 145 of 185 (429895)
10-22-2007 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dr Jack
10-22-2007 6:05 AM


God=Brain
I'm gonna sum all this up by saying what I think and will ALWAYS think.
God is my brain, I trust it, have no choice but to obey it and rely on it for life. My brain allows for all my senses/nervous system/reason to operate and experience the world. Without it, I would not exist, there is no evidence or proof otherwise. So I will always maintain it as my God and shall have no other God but it. I shall never take it in vain and will always search it for the truth.
Praise God
Amen
Edited by Spektical, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Dr Jack, posted 10-22-2007 6:05 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 146 of 185 (429936)
10-22-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 8:30 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
-Isaiah 52:12 and 53:13
The carnage against Him was so awful that Isaiah prophesied, that, “His body would be marred more than any other man.” His beating was so profound that He literally was a lump of flesh and blood.
Again, NJ, you are mistakenly claiming yet another Hebrew Bible reference as being messianic when it isn’t. This Servant Song is NOT messianic at all, it isn’t even about an individual person.
Therefore, once again, the Messiah is God, and God the Messiah.
Why is it then that this idea of yours is completely alien to Judaism?
Despite all of this amazing prophecy,
What you and other Christians have singularly failed to do is to actually prove that a single prophecy has been fulfilled!
Probably the main reason why most do not believe Jesus was the Messiah is that He did not establish peace on earth.
Which is what God promised that the Messiah will do.
What they fail to realize is that His return is imminent, and though it tarries, God is not slack on His promises.
But the appearance of the Messiah heralds in the messianic age, which is what I showed to Gen and she/he didn’t even recognise the most well-known messianic prophecy of all. Jesus did not herald in the messianic age, he failed, simple as that.
Jesus is Mashiac ben Yosef,
But he wasn’t. Why do Christians seem intent on ignoring this simple fact? Jesus was NOT Joseph’s son, Jesus has no bloodline to Solomon, Jesus was no messiah.
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious. It shall come to pass in that Day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left.” -Isaiah 11:10-11
Once again Jesus has failed to fulfil this.
Jesse was David’s father. Therefore, when it speaks a Branch, it is referring to Davidic lineage.
And poor Jesus is excluded.
As we have read, there is no greater a candidate for Messiahship than that of Jesus.
Oh Bar Kokhba was well ahead of Jesus in the messiah stakes.
Here’s the fact: Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is truly, truly, truly, the Mashiac.
Why has no one ever proven this then if it is ”true’?
I have personally counted 317 messianic prophecies of the Old Testament that have been, or have nearly been fulfilled in the New Testament.
This is a ridiculous number of ”messianic prophecies’, at most there’s probably about 20.
Some numbnut emailed me something along the lines of ”300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus’ and they were mostly ludicrous. Nonsense like he will be a son of Jesse, and he will be a son of David lol and counted this as 2 prophecies.
But here is the real problem. You claim that you found prophecies fulfilled in the NT that were mentioned in the OT, cant you see a problem with that? Don’t you think if someone was inventing a messiah that they would really need to make sure that guy fitted the prophecies? What you do not have is ANY external evidence to support any of these ”wonderful’ fulfilments, you live in a world of circular reasoning and seem to be blissfully unaware of it.
So, when Jesus stood up to read the first portion of Isaiah, it describes Mashiac ben Yosef, the suffering servant.
Two things here. The suffering servant is not a man, and what proof do you have that Jesus said these words?
Finally, one of the most remarkable prophecies recorded in the Bible comes to us from Daniel, written 600 years before Jesus’ time.
Not many Christians know that Hebrews did not consider Daniel a to be a prophet, probably because of the horrendous historical blunders the authors made.
AND THIS IS WHAT IS TO COME:
“An oracle concerning Damascus: ”See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a ruinous heap. The cities of Aroer will be deserted.” -Isaiah 17:1-2
Damascus is the capital of Syria and is said to be the oldest, continuously inhabited city in human history. ”Aroer’ is a city in south central Jordan. Both countries are staunchly opposed to Israel. We are currently unsure where this prophecy fits, as far as chronology is concerned.
The Bible is amazing it even has accurate prophecies that haven’t been fulfilled yet!
Jesus makes it quite clear that we do not the exact time of His coming,
What else do you expect a liar to say? Of course the ”prophecy’ wouldn’t be fulfilled in jesus’ lifetime, because Jesus was no messiah, so he would have to pull a fast one.
All this will come to pass, either in this generation or one to come. Given the headlines on the news, we are perhaps right on the very cusp of this reality. Food for thought.
Christians have been saying this for about 2000 years.
I don’t know how many chances this Jesus character needs. Anyone who studies the Bible with even the slightest hint of objectivity can see that Jesus was no messiah. It must be that spiritual discernment that short circuits people’s brains, I can’t see any other explanation for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 8:30 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-23-2007 2:57 PM Brian has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 147 of 185 (429962)
10-22-2007 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
10-22-2007 12:04 AM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Well, ain't the kettle calling the pot black. You indict any and all creationists, including their mothers, and their mothers mother.
I do not in fact claim or imply that they are all motivated by unworthy motives, I just think they're wrong.
Nor have I ever said anything critical of creationists' mothers or grandmothers.
So don't talk to me about cherry picking when you live under the cherry tree.
There's no point in lying to me about my own behavior, I'm not going to be fooled.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2007 12:04 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 148 of 185 (429965)
10-22-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Hyroglyphx
10-22-2007 12:13 AM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
But it is John, in the first instance, who claims that Jesus was God, and in the second instance it's a bunch of people who want to stone him claiming that he claims to be God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2007 12:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 149 of 185 (429967)
10-22-2007 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
10-21-2007 8:49 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Here is the transcripts of the Council of Trent ...
Do you suppose they got it right? I had the impression that you were a Protestant.
I had also supposed that "the early years when Christianity was a fledgling religion" were well over by the year 1545, which was the date of the first Council of Trent.
...as well as the Nicene Council.
I have never understood where this myth comes from about the Nicine Council determining the canon of the Bible. They didn't. They never mentioned the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-21-2007 8:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 10-22-2007 8:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 185 (429968)
10-22-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Dr Adequate
10-22-2007 8:20 PM


Re: JC Did Not Exist!
Do you suppose they got it right? I had the impression that you were a Protestant.
Quite a few protestants attended and took part in the various Councils of Trent. In fact Luther was invited but by then he had stirred things up too much and so refused to take part, even though almost every thing he had questioned were not only addressed, but adopted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2007 8:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2007 1:21 PM jar has not replied

  
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