Heavy Irony: hardright Israelis condemn Sharon as dictator for making them move

I don't understand why people can't stay on topic... does no one see the irony in what is happening here?Anyway, as to what this is "about" I am totally baffled how an overtly religious state seeking to gain power and wealth and iconography for that religion, gets passed off as just about power and wealth (even if not excessive wealth).I agree with the above that the religion has been used by Israelis to define us and them. But they did this before the state existed. They were not pushing for "secure borders" and "civilian infrastructure" and etc etcThe Zionist movement headed by Ben Gurion was to establish a Jewish state. It was power for a religious entity. And they were so interested in centering it on religion instead of security, that they turned down establishing a base in the US, to grabbing land in Palestine because it fulfills scripture.When Zionists talk about it today it is about whatever blood it takes to take back the lands promised by God. If they were willing to let go there'd be no problem, but they are willing to sacrifice security for religion.When Fundamentalist Xians, including some of our top policy makers, discuss Israel it has been in the context of preserving God's word.Yes, they define Israel (religious nation state of Jews) as Us and everyone else as Them. And then they grab power and wealth for that "Us" within the boundaries of their religious needs.Its like saying the Nazi pogrom against nonAryans and other "lesser people" wasn't racist, it was about power. YEAH, power FOR a specific RACE and within an agenda regarding that race.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Boy that was disappointing.Anyhow, during the night I thought of how... using your own hypothetical... your premise could be shown to be wrong.You kept placing the "event" in the here and now with some established political entities which MIGHT make trouble for each other.But let's say the event happened back before the founding of Israel. Lets say it happened and so suddenly this whole area which was once Jews, Xians, and Muslims living together, was just Muslims.Then there would not have been a Zionist movement to buy up certain tracks of contiguous land away from people of another religion in order to secure those lands that God had promised, and in a hope to rebuild that nation and temple. Right?Then there would not have been an effort by Zionists and the English to divide up the territory with one nation state running (in order to maintain a distinctive religious majority in the following government) through the MIDDLE of it, leaving two odd disconnected areas, which may or may not form a single state itself... right?If your event had occured back then, the most likely result today is that we would have seen a single nation made of the entire territory. Right?Or do you actually believe that a certain group of people... the zionists making up Israel today, though now all muslim... would still have demanded a single state for themselves and grabbed land as they have, and been unwilling to allow others to return to occupied land or trade land?If so, why?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hang loose. Your post deserves a reasonable answer. I kept the notification to remind me and I'll get back to it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

From this article on CNN.That's ironic right? Given that she lives in an area that exists because Palestinians were thrown out of their homes. And they continue to be thrown out in order to provide safety for her from the Palestinains who are upset having been thrown out of their homes? Unlike the Palestinians?But anyway, take a look at this and think about it... All of this, which is putting Israel into a state of near civil war, is over conceding a very minute portion of the road map to peace.It is over conceding a small portion of what the international community and the UN have labelled as illegal occupation and needs to be returned.The Israelis have consistently said they are willing to negotiate and the only thing stopping them is the Palestinians inability to hold back violence.HOWEVER, when there was a chance at a resolution the Israelis assassinated their own leader and then reneged on the negotiations.The Palestinians have since renewed violence stating that the Israelis never intend to give back the land, and are using the exuse of violence as a cover.Now doesn't that square with the facts?If the Israelis were ever going to give back the land wouldn't they have continued Rabin's process in spite of his death?And how can anyone believe they are willing to negotiate if giving up this little amount of land is setting them up for civil war?Again, I ask any Israeli apologist to please explain.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

> does no one see the irony in what is happening here?Just so you know, I found this all quite ironic, but haven't responded because noone has put up any sort of rebuttal yet.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

quote:

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Its like saying the Nazi pogrom against nonAryans and other "lesser people" wasn't racist, it was about power. YEAH, power FOR a specific RACE and within an agenda regarding that race.

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Actually, thats precisely what I meant. Certianly my experience in South Africa leads me to believe that racism is a rationale used for the defence of power and privilige, rather than being a main motivator in its own right. Similarly, I see the Nazi's as developing a theory that legitmised their conquest of others by claiming their own superiority. And I see a great similarity with both of these and the doctrine of Empire bringing its superior civilisation to the benighted masses.I see racism as symptom, not cause, and I see the Israeli appeal to Judaic religion in much the same light.

This is a chicken and egg sort of problem, with one test that can prove which comes first (and foremost).If religion or race is merely a tool for gaining X, then religion or race will be compromised or abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to gaining X.I suppose we can't see exactly which it was with the case of the Nazis but it is perfectly clear with the case of Israel.The Zionist movement turned down perfectly valid and equally empowering options in order to fulfill biblical scripture. Once part of that was achieved (a nation in that region) they continued to aggravate the situation by gaining more land (which they do NOT need for power or wealth) in order to prove biblical scripture.Their movement has not only placed them in physical jeopardy it has cost an immense amount of wealth and power, without any significant gains OTHER than religious fulfillment.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

quote:

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If religion or race is merely a tool for gaining X, then religion or race will be compromised or abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to gaining X.

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Hmm, except that there is one fundamental commodity that gets you everything: human labour. religion is very good at procuring obedience, voluntary labour, and a self-policing flock.

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Their movement has not only placed them in physical jeopardy it has cost an immense amount of wealth and power, without any significant gains OTHER than religious fulfillment.

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Religion, being utopian and non-materialistic, is prone to irrational and counter-productive decisions. Thus it does not surprise me that religious doctrine can supercede the most beneficial course of action - that is its major weakness as a serious theory of social organisation or praxis, I feel.

"Does no one see the irony of what is happening here?"
Yes it is ironic. Perhaps it is a prophesy being fullfilled. I also feel it is ironic that the US desimates Iraq for WMD and N Korea is exploding nukes. Or the irony of US troops commiting attrocities against prisoners that the US was suppose to take a stance against. Life is stanger than fiction Holmes.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

I understand HOW religion can be used to gain power and wealth. I am on board that it can be a tool. The question is whether it can be an objective or guiding force in and of itself. And if so, is it the case with regard to Israel?While I am certain there are shucksters gaining power using religion in Israel (I don't even doubt that Sharon does this), the state of Israel and the policies it carries out, and the whole problem it has created is based on religion and not just power and wealth. This only supports what I have said.If you or jar want to say that somewhere in the past someone just wanted power and so invented this Jewish thing, and now its taken on a life of its own and superceded the pure quest for power and wealth, then I can agree to that.The point I am making is that sometimes it is not just power and wealth, it is another cause, and in the case of Israel it is religion.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

When you do respond, I thought of another thought experiment using your "event".Pretend the "event", happening today or tomorrow, turned every Palestinian Jewish... and in this case heredity wise, not just conversion.Wouldn't they then get the right of return, which they are being denied now?Wouldn't Israel be glad to accept new territories into Israel with the actual population intact?And if this event occured BEFORE the creation of Israel, wouldn't the entire area have been made a single state, instead of arbitrarily cut up borders forming a nation inside a larger land?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hey Holmes.Before responding do you think we should move it to a different thread since it is somewhat OT?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If you think this can be completed within a couple posts, and it is specific to the Israel, then here is fine. It seems most agree that it is ironic, and the main debate has become the reason for the problems.If you think this is a bigger topic, like maybe it'll go into whether everything comes down to power and wealth and nothing else, then definitely go ahead and start a new thread.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I certainly cannot disagree on the ironic issue, what could be more ironic than then the life and history of Begin? From King David to Camp David.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The saddest thing about the Middle East conflict is that here we have a nation who gained the world`s sympathy for suffering one of the worst examples of ethnic cleansing by the Nazis, applying the same deluded thinking (if not the same extreme methods)to another ethnic group.