Right to Life Ethical Considerations

Then I invite you, again, to address my points and not merely my language.Other people are different from you, and have different attitudes, idioms, and modes of address. You may find how I speak offensive. You've certainly offended me by the way you constantly evade the discussion. But part of being an adult is recognizing that people are different and do not communicate with us in the way that we would like. If that's going to be a stumbling block for you then I would suggest you rethink your participation in these discussions. Again, by the union of sperm and egg inside the fallopian tube of a woman. Why do I have to keep reminding you of this fact? Sperm do not check in with the owner of the fallopian tube to make sure they're not trespassing. Ovaries don't check in with the brain to make sure it's a good time to be pregnant. Choice is irrelevant at the level of conception, because the gametes in question are not affected by choices, they're affected by chemicals.

I am simply suggesting to you that a bit more disgression in your responses would be of great benefit to both you and I. You are ignoring my point. People own these things. They do not have a mind of thier own...(well as far as we know) Now again I would request that you give me examples of how sperm and egg come together without the involvement of personal choice.

But that's exactly the point. "These things" you refer to do have a set of behaviors and responses that may very well be precisely antagonistic to the wishes of their owners. But you've given exactly that example yourself - as you've pointed out, gametes have no mind, thus, they cannot be said to be making personal choices. And we've already established that the human actors have made exactly the opposite choice, or else they wouldn't be getting an abortion.You seem to be working towards the conclusion that choosing to have sex is the same as choosing to become pregnant; let me just head you off at the pass. That conclusion is false by inspection - as proven by the people who choose to have sex but use contraception, or choose to have sex and then have abortions. Clearly, the choice to have sex and the choice to be pregnant are two different things, or else people wouldn't be getting pregnant against their choice.

The idea of contraception is false. Everyone knows that using contraception will allow you to get pregnant. To parade the falicy of contaception as if it prevents pregnancy is a joke. Your idea is based on a false assumption. You choose to ignore this fact. People who choose to use contraception are accepting that anywhere from 1 out of 25 and up to 1 out of 5 will become pregnant.Web definitions:Contraception
The prevention of conception by the use of birth control devices or agents.This definition does not match the truth and should be corrected.
In truth there is only one contraception by choice. Abstinance.To intend to prevent a pregnancy with the full understanding that you have between a 1/25 and as high as a 1 in 5 chance of experiencing the opposite outcome is not a wise decission. The condom is the most widely used. It has a 15% failure rate. Thats roughly 1 in 6. One is looking at the short term goals and ignoring the truth of the decission. That is characteristic of imaturity which is my original point. Again this point is mute if someone considers an unborn child simply tissue to be discarded.The anology to cars accidents was made. This was absurd but in any event what mature individual would risk a 1 in 6 chance of having a car accident? It has worse odds than drinking and driving. That is illegal. We do not tolerate those odds. For that matter show me where a 15% faiure rate is acceptable in other products we use that have even remotely similar potential consequences. If you bought a car and it had a 1 in 6 chance of working you would freak. When considering a person mading the purchase of a care understanding fully that 1 out of 6 will be worthless most people would consider them a fool.I have no problem with the person who is honest and says they either do not care about a fetus or they do not believe it is life. That is honest.

As a sexually active man who's never fathered any children, I can assure you that this is completely false. Contraception is very effective.It's actually fairly hard to get pregnant, because human bodies, particularly the female's, already have their own "natural" contraception. It's estimated that, just among people trying on purpose to get pregnant, less than 1 in 500 copulatory acts will result in pregnancy. Almost nobody gets pregnant on the first try. Usually it takes couples about a year to successfully concieve. The reason is that the vagina is not a hospitable environment for sperm - the pH of those fluids is almost the exact opposite of what sperm require to survive, and the window to fertilize an ovum is very small indeed.The conventional depiction of fertilization has sperm swimming up the fallopian tubes to encounter an ovum who was there waiting all along, but this is exactly backwards. Ova don't wait; they immediately begin their journey down the fallopian tube and if they enter the uterus before fertilization, pregnancy will not begin, no matter what sperm the ovum may encounter at that point. Past the fallopian tube, any fertilization will result in an almost immediate abortion. And because human women ovulate cryptically, neither the male nor the woman herself in most cases has any idea whether or not a given sex act has any likelyhood at all of producing children.So, unlike your false contention that contraception doesn't exist, or doesn't work, we see that the truth of the matter is that contraception is so natural and so effective that it evolved in the female body millions of years before the Pill became available. Millions of years before the Romans were using sponges. The reason that the female body is so naturally contraceptive all on its own is because the purpose of sex in humans is not reproduction; it's social bonding. Human beings are designed to have a large amount of sex that produces only a small number of children. It's right there, written in our bodies. Abstinence is contrary to that natural purpose. Absolutely false. The effectiveness of condoms is over 98% in almost every study where they have been tested.The effectiveness of teaching or promoting abstinence? Less than 50%. Less, in fact, by far, than the teaching of effective contraception such as condoms or the Pill. More than half of the students who recieve only abstinence "education" become pregnant or STD-positive long before their wedding day. You should really look up these things before you post them. Arguing from a position of ignorance is, well, ignorant. If you had looked it up, you would see that the odds that an American driver will be involved in a car accident are so high that the US Dept of Transportation all but guarantees that, if you ride or drive in cars at all, you will be involved in a car accident. Guarantees. The odds that you will die in such an accident are one in 69. The alternative is a life of house arrest - no life at all.In other words, adult people accept risks to experience a full life. Immature people willingly abandon experience for cowardice, and accept conditions - confinement, abstinence - that other people consider punishments. It's not clear that you have a "problem" with anybody at all. I mean, even if we accept every single one of your points, so what? You've already said that you favor no restrictions on abortion or contraception, and no punishment for those who recieve abortions or contraception. So what, exactly, are we arguing about? Besides your obsession with condemning people who live a fuller life than you ever will?

This is simply your assertion. The acidic nature of a womans vagina may simply be evolutions way to insure only the fittest survive. You have neglected to state that the male seminal fluid is a base and helps to counteract the acidic environment of the vagina. To make the statement that Abstinence is contrary to your imagined natural purpose...lol I would expect nothing less from you
So now your the preacher telling us all what our natural purpose is?
Sound reasoning I must say. Right thats why every place I have looked on the web so far when typing in "contraception effectiveness" Or "Contraception failure rate" or a number of other key words, all the results I have seen so far agree including the statistics of planned parenthood. Yes, Adult people accept risks, To themselves. We do not accept when people take others lives into thier own hands without the consent of the other party. Therefore one who takes the risk of getting pregnant must believe that a fetus is just lifeless tissue to be discarded to be true to this line of thinking. That is something I have maintained.
So what exactly is your point. So you are saying to you life with a limited amount of sex is no life at all? You mean to say that if you got in a car accident and were rendered phalically useless you would rather die? Life would have no meaning? I am jsut trying to understand where you place sex on the list of things most improtant in your life. I have simply pointed out the reality of choices. Anyone who "condemns " themselves does so on thier own.
In yor last statement you assume to be privy to the answer to a full life. Of course coming from a preacher who professes to know what our natural purpose is this is to be expected. I have to ask since you have not stated, How do you view a fetus?
How does it rank?Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

I think you're using a different statistic than Crash. From Planned Parenthood: if used properly condoms are 98% effective at stopping pregnancy, if used "inconsistently or imperfectly" condoms are only 85% effective at stopping pregnancy. It seems clear that Crash is arguing using the "if used properly" stat and you have something else.

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Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

Oh, come on. Did you even think that through? The sperm donates nothing to the zygote but it's nucleus. What possible evolutionary relevance is the rest of its cell physiology? "Only the fittest survive." If you're going to try to look to evolutionary explanations, it would be best for you to keep in mind that evolution is a scientific theory that models a reality, not a collection of aphorisms. The body tells us what its purpose is. It's not my problem if you don't care to look. Citations? It was actually Planned Parenthood's statistics that I was looking at - they suggest a 98-99% success rate for condoms. What party? I'm not clear on this. Could you elaborate? I'm saying that a life of self-denial out of fear is no life; it's cowardice. There are many reasons an adult might practice asceticism. Fear of the consequences of a full life is not one of them. A person who makes that choice is not an adult. Understand, then, that no adult in my opinion would choose a life of self-denial out of fear of a life lived fully. That's simply not the adult choice; that's the immature choice. That's the choice of a child-like mind. Typically? With ultrasound. Sometimes a fiber-optic endoscope can be used, but that's a surgical procedure only done for illustrative purposes.

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If you wish to ask me what I would be inclined to do as a woman in that position or with a woman in that position I can answer that. Is this what you are asking?

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No.I am asking you what YOU believe in general about women who become pregnant due to a rape and then have an abortion. What is your judgement about them? Come on, you haven't been shy before now. Are you becoming a moral relavatist all of a sudden?You have stated that all women who get abortions do not value life at all, but then you have also implied that women who become pregnant after a rape are somehow to be considered differently because of the lack of "choice".I do not understand why this makes a difference. In either case, to use your language, a woman is "throwing away" into the "trash" a "lump of flesh".

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I have no problem with the person who is honest and says they either do not care about a fetus or they do not believe it is life. That is honest.

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I do not buy this.I think you do have a problem...a very significant problem, with such people.You seem to think them devoid of morals, ethics.You seem to think of them as evil, unfeeling baby killers.

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This definition does not match the truth and should be corrected.
In truth there is only one contraception by choice. Abstinance.

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So, should a married couple who do not want to become pregnant completely abstain from intercourse, even if they have had a tubal ligation and a vasectomy, because there is still a small chance that they could become pregnant?If they still have intercourse, are they, in your opinion, behaving irresponsibly?

Taters,I would much appreciate a reply to Message #124 in this thread, if you would be so kind.In particular, I'd like your response to include an answer to the questions I asked at the end of the post.Thanks in advance. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

After several pages of arguments about contraception and responsibility, I fear that some may lose sight of the fundamental issue:A woman is pregnant, and she does not want to be pregnant. That is all the justification a woman needs to have an abortion. No other factor is really all that relevant to the decision; the woman does not want to be pregnant, and that is sufficient justification to terminate the pregnancy.

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"These monkeys are at once the ugliest and the most beautiful creatures on the planet./ And the monkeys don't want to be monkeys; they want to be something else./ But they're not."
-- Ernie Cline

Nothing new here. Just your opinion. A life of self denial out of fear could indeed be limiting.
I fail to see the relevance. Where is fear a factor?
Exactly what is being denied?
What is a full life? Again. Trying to understand your thinking.
What fear?
What is being denied?
What is a life fully lived? Yes yes, that was funny. Now answer that from your personal perspective. Fetus =

Asked and answered. Please refer back to previous posts if you don't remember. What? I don't understand. Could you make an effort to be clearer?