Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Morality -- in spite of the bible?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 19 (421413)
09-12-2007 4:33 PM


Things have been a little slow, so I thought I'd throw a bone in the fire:
This is a short video talking about where we get morality from and the relative merits of the biblical teaching on the subject:
(Part 3, Sam Harris talks about religion at the Aspen Ideas Festival.)
So I put it to you, that people have the moral codes they do -- including christians -- in spite of what the bible says, not because of it.
Let the fray commence
Enjoy.
ps -- the full speech is in 6 parts on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1LWv6JqRMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHkvQbohO68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDuY1IdbvGU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eWtBZ04Po0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHkZULu_l0c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojsm5A1LP0U
Edited by RAZD, : sp
Edited by RAZD, : reference
Edited by RAZD, : added ps

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 4:58 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 6 by ikabod, posted 09-13-2007 6:28 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2007 1:10 AM RAZD has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 2 of 19 (421417)
09-12-2007 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-12-2007 4:33 PM


No sarcasm here. I'm willing to bet $10.00 that if riverrat jumps in here he will be able to rationalize everything the guy mentioned.
Added by edit.
I strongly advice everyone to see parts 1,2, 4, etc. The part linked to in first post is part 3.
Edited by Tazmanius Devilus, : No reason given.
Edited by Tazmanius Devilus, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 4:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 5:14 PM Taz has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 19 (421419)
09-12-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Taz
09-12-2007 4:58 PM


I strongly advice everyone to see parts 1,2, 4, etc. The part linked to in first post is part 3.
Yeah, I picked 3 because it best fit the thesis for this post: that morality - even christian morality - is in spite of the bible, not because of it.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 4:58 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 5:20 PM RAZD has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 19 (421421)
09-12-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
09-12-2007 5:14 PM


RAZD, I have a personal question. I know that you have been going through treatments for cancer. There is always the chance that your life might end prematurely. Does this make you feel the need to cry out for god's help at all?
------------------------------------------------------------
Added by Edit to save cyberspace.
RAZD writes:
Nope. What comes comes, it will be interesting.
You certainly have a lot of courage and conviction toward human reason. I'd probably cry like a little girl in your situation.
Edited by Tazmanius Devilus, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 5:14 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 5:50 PM Taz has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 19 (421425)
09-12-2007 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
09-12-2007 5:20 PM


Nope. What comes comes, it will be interesting.

added by edit to save cyberspace:
I'd probably cry like a little girl in your situation.
Q: Doc, how will I know if I am cured of cancer?
A: When you die of something else.
Goal: Die of something else (and have fun doing it).
Edited by RAZD, : reply to added message
Edited by RAZD, : formating

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 5:20 PM Taz has not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 6 of 19 (421554)
09-13-2007 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-12-2007 4:33 PM


sorry no fray ....i agrees with you ..
the moral code people have in their head has very little to do with the bible .. though many may THINK the moral code they use has biblical origins ... these being the sort who have never read the bible but can "quote" from it ...
these days TV is a bigger sorce of "moral" imput in to peoples heads ....hence some of the nicely twisted morals one sees ..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 4:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 09-13-2007 5:51 PM ikabod has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 19 (421673)
09-13-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ikabod
09-13-2007 6:28 AM


absolute morality is dead.
the moral code people have in their head has very little to do with the bible .
Exactly, and this also means that the concept of absolute morality is also refuted.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ikabod, posted 09-13-2007 6:28 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ikabod, posted 09-14-2007 7:02 AM RAZD has not replied
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 09-14-2007 11:42 PM RAZD has not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 8 of 19 (421737)
09-14-2007 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
09-13-2007 5:51 PM


Re: absolute morality is dead.
ooooooooooooooooh carefull you will take us off topic ...... such statements have spawned much heated debate on the on the concept of absolute's , morality , absolute morality and absolute morals ...
but im a good boy now and i will not give in to temptation to stray from the rightious path of the OP ....)....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 09-13-2007 5:51 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 19 (421902)
09-14-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
09-13-2007 5:51 PM


Re: absolute morality is dead.
Just for the record, I don't think it is. I for one believe in absolute morality. And to set another record straight, I firmly believe that religionists are moral relativists rather than absolutists like they claim.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 09-13-2007 5:51 PM RAZD has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 19 (421919)
09-15-2007 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-12-2007 4:33 PM


not entirely correct
the bible is a very schizophrenic set of texts. much of the patriarchy examples are actually something like counterexamples, meant to demonstrate the imperfection of humanity and what not to do. this is not to deny the commands to rape and genocide.
mr. harris also makes a few claims that sort of miss the point. most egregious among these is that god (paraphrasing here) "will kill you for sodomy, but enjoys the occasional human sacrifice" and that this makes his priorities out of line.
the problem is that "sodomy" has come to mean gay sex, between two consenting adults. a trick of words, or an error on his part, that totally misrepresents that portion of the bible. the story of sodom (and gibeah) is one of inhospitality and attempted brutal gang rape. the inhabitants of sodom are not gay, they're rapists. that point of emphasis is entirely important to the discussion. god punishes a town not because they dared to put penis to anus, but because of their treatment of others. (yes, god does command death for gays, but evidently approves of david's homosexual relationship enough to make him king of israel. like i said, schizophrenic)
second is that the god of old testament does not enjoy human sacrifice, and specifically commands against it. the "long gloomy walk" with abraham and isaac is actually among them -- god stops abraham from killing his son. the christian tradition of sacrifice does not fit with the old testament.
another point of interest is that christianity today is markedly different than the teachings of christ. jesus is often seen as teaching morality for morality's sake, not god's. his ministry specifically removes concerns about the law, while backing up the notion that we shouldn't do things to others that we wouldn't like done to us (judge not, etc). he argues against the religious legalists, the pharisees, and this is no coincidence. a prophet, he seems to be talking about the internalization of morality. it is then highly ironic that a religion in his name should so explicitly externalize morality with threats of hell and rewards of heaven. i think that says something counter to his point -- we do need externalization, as evidenced by the fact that it just keeps coming back. we shouldn't, but we do.
the qualitative assessment that the OT is all barbaric and bad is also a bit out of line. it's something somewhat handed down for christian tradition, and does not honestly belong in an atheistic reading of the bible. the old testament is a human text -- it presents both the best and the worst we have to offer as a species. yes, a lot of bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2007 4:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2007 3:15 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 09-16-2007 3:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 19 (422236)
09-16-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
09-15-2007 1:10 AM


Re: not entirely correct
the bible is a very schizophrenic set of texts.
another point of interest is that christianity today is markedly different than the teachings of christ. the problem is that "sodomy" has come to mean gay sex,
These are basically minor quibbles about what the bible says. It does not address the issue of morals in society being other than what is in the bible, whether on issues of sex or on issues of child care, wife treatment, slavery, etc.
Those moral positions of our society are different because of increased enlightenment and education, and they are held by christians in spite of what the bible says.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2007 1:10 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 09-16-2007 6:11 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 19 (422238)
09-16-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
09-15-2007 1:10 AM


Re: not entirely correct
arachno writes:
second is that the god of old testament does not enjoy human sacrifice, and specifically commands against it. the "long gloomy walk" with abraham and isaac is actually among them -- god stops abraham from killing his son.
One of my past philosophy professors told me his take on this particular story. He said that this story alone made him doubt god not because of human sacrifice but because of the emotional suffering god supposedly put Abraham through in the period between the command to sacrifice his son and the angel stopping him from cutting his son's throat. Being a parent, my prof said, it is inconcievable for him to even think about harming his children.
My professor also said that either there was a miscommunication somewhere along the line (assuming we are still talking about an all loving god) or god really was an unempathetic bastard who was high on power.
Edited by Tazmanius Devilus, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2007 1:10 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 09-16-2007 4:23 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 09-16-2007 6:13 PM Taz has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 19 (422244)
09-16-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
09-16-2007 3:29 PM


Re: not entirely correct
Huh. For some reason your story reminds me of the story of Griselda. Griselda's patience and love and loyalty is rewarded by finding out that her husband didn't really murder her children years ago, and didn't really divorce her -- and she can come back and be his wife! Which she happily does...despite having missed seeing her own children grow up!
Same message. Be patient and do what your told, despite being fucked around with by your superiors. And your reward will be...finding out that the superior who is fucking around with you is just joking, and loves you after all!
Ugh. I like The Decameron as a whole, but what a nasty way to end the book.

You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 09-16-2007 3:29 PM Taz has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 19 (422256)
09-16-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
09-16-2007 3:15 PM


Re: not entirely correct
These are basically minor quibbles about what the bible says.
yes, thus the emphasis on "entirely" in "not entirely correct." a lot of it is, but some points are not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2007 3:15 PM RAZD has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 19 (422257)
09-16-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
09-16-2007 3:29 PM


Re: not entirely correct
Being a parent, my prof said, it is inconcievable for him to even think about harming his children.
one traditional reading is that abraham, who is known for arguing with god, was supposed to argue here. and that abraham actually failed this test. this has a lot to do with the fact that sarah became pregnant with isaac shortly after abimelech slept with her. abraham probably didn't think isaac was is child.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 09-16-2007 3:29 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 09-16-2007 6:18 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 09-16-2007 6:24 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024