Racist, Sexist and other-ist Jokes

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First here you say that "What I think is that a lot of well meaning people do hatefull [sic] things becuase [sic] they do not think about the consequences of their actions." But then at the bottom of the post I'm replying to, you seem to claim that these "well-meaning people" are in fact bigots. Well, which is it?

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Both. Being well-meaning and being a bigot are not contradictory states.

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If you're accusing them of being bigots, then I'd at least understand your indignation. However, I've been saying all along that your assumption that their motives are racist or sexist is based on your assumption that no one would find these jokes amusing unless he is a bigot. I've called this assumption into question and you've never supported it.

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THeir moptives are utterly unimportant. Their behaviour is important, and their behaviour is racist. If they are truly well-intentioned, they should be able to recognise this and give up suych racist behaviour. But Born2Preach clearly is an authentic bigot and will certainly not do so, for example.Once again we see the Maninchaen reflex; EITHER people are unconreconstructed nzis OR they are innocents with good intentions. There's no recognition of the complexity of the world or people or socities in this simplistic construction.

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In the above post, you say that systematic propaganda can and does create the environment of dehumanisation that brought about both the Nazi genocide and Abu Ghraib. But are you actually calling bad jokes "systematic propaganda"?

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Yes. BEcuase remember, they are not BAD jokes; many are skillfully and correctly constructed. The paylod is still racist dehumanisation, however.

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By the same logic, couldn't I say that the lyrics to Visigoth marching songs were what created an environment that led to conditions that brought about the fall of the Roman Empire?

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Your history is abit off, but yes, exactly. More easy to see, the Romano-Greek assumption that all barbarians and peasants were lesser people is exactly what lead to atrocities like Rome nailing people to crosses all the way to the sea.

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If there is some sort of cause-and-effect relationship between bad jokes and genocide, shouldn't genocide be happening everywhere bad jokes are told?

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Well, America committed genocide against the Indians, and exhibits a lot of tolerance for racism. England slaughtered millions in Africa, and also has a whole tradition of racist humour. The German Nazi's definitely produced "humorous" cartoons and jokes to dehumanise Jews. So yes, there is a correlation - and it is in fact precisely the American tolerahnce of racism that elad to Abu Ghraib.

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I can't tell whether you meant to compare me to Joseph Goebbels here or whether you were trying to say that I'd defend everything he said as if he were "just kidding."

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The latter. Pay attention please, I'm not paid by the word and don't like repeating myself.

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I don't know where you're from, and I'm not sure where you learned what little you know about sociology. But I see dreary, humorless busybodies all the time, and I hear the same nonsense coming from them.

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South Africa. And I have seen racist scum on many, many occassions, and they share for example the worldview of born2preach by about 90%.

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Contracycle, I'm curious. Are you one of those really uptight white people, (Like my sister).

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I'm a dope-smoking, e-taking, game playing white guy. How uptight is that, on a scale of 1 to 10?

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I'm white BTW and about as non-racist as they come,

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The latter is demonstrably untrue as you immediately say:

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but I have never seen a problem with telling ethnic jokes when everyone knows their meant to be funny and not to offend or "dehumanize" anyone.

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and i can have macaroni and cheese bofore i go murder my roommate. it was a precursor... macaroni and cheese is evil!look. south africa has had an immensely trying history. that does not mean that joking about what makes people different is wrong. you know the main thing that joking about what makes people different accomplishes? it tells us just how entirely the same we really are. we all have frailties, we all have weaknesses, we all have strengths. someday no one will worry about racism. i know it. it has to happen. but guess what we'll be doing then. making jokes about things that don't matter anymore. and then they will be funny to everyone.

But Rand is telling you it is not his intention to dehumanise anyone, therefore his claim to be non-racist stands. It is YOUR assertion, that you have yet to support, that all -ist/-ism jokes are intended to, & do, dehumanise.I have heard anti-English jokes & not been dehumanised, so you must be talking bullpuckey.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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But Rand is telling you it is not his intention to dehumanise anyone, therefore his claim to be non-racist stands.

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Do you have reading comprehension problems? I have now said on multiple occassions that INTENT IS IRRELEVANT. Only behaviour is relevant.

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I have heard anti-English jokes & not been dehumanised, so you must be talking bullpuckey.

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And you are sufficiently safe from threat that you CAN enjoy it as funny. But there are still places you can go in Africa where the jokes are not so light, and you are in severe danger of having the shit kicked out of you for being English. It won't be so "funny" then.Again, this demonstrates a complete inability to engage with the problem. Asking for a proof of the dehumanisating effects of propaganda is absurd; at least do some BASIC reading on these issues, for gods sake. Your argument is merely an appeal to your own ignorance in defiance of the many studies of constructed ideology.

contracycle, Do I have reading comprehsion problems? Gooooood grief, Charlie Brown. WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, & WHAT YOU HAVE SUPPORTED ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! Do you have reading conprehension problems?So what you are saying is, that when someone tells an ostensibly anti-English joke I am dehumanised regardless of how I feel about it? YOU are not the judge about whether or not someone has dehumanised me verbally. I'll keep my own counsel, thak you very much! Ahh, so it is possible for a -ist/-ism joke to be funny after all?If the intent of the joke is to offend, it wouldn't be funny, if it was, it would be. But who says physical violence is a joke? Not I, STAY FOCUSSED. An irrelevant diversion. Sit down, get your hands off of the keyboard, & read. READ. Comprehend. OK?No-one is saying, no-one, that a racist joke couldn't be offensive. Got it? The point is that an anti-English joke told by my Scottish brother-in-laws would be designed to be funny, & not offend or dehumanise me. Therefore I am not offended or dehumanised.You might think you are the caped crusader of PC, but the rest of us will let you know when we feel offended, degraded, & dehumanised by any given joke, OK?MarkThis message has been edited by mark24, 08-05-2004 08:05 AM

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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So what you are saying is, that when someone tells an ostensibly anti-English joke I am dehumanised regardless of how I feel about it?

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Umm, what YOU feel about it is pretty much irrelevant. Racist jokes are constructed to appeal to an audience that is not the group who are the subject of the joke; the purpose is to dehumnanise the subject group in the audience group.

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Ahh, so it is possible for a -ist/-ism joke to be funny after all?

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Its possible fo you to spend a great deal of effort building a useless device, too. Pope = catholic.

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If the intent of the joke is to offend, it wouldn't be funny, if it was, it would be. But who says physical violence is a joke? Not I, STAY FOCUSSED. An irrelevant diversion.

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It is not a diversion. You may feel comfortable ignoring anti-english jokes, becuase you are safe, but if you were abritish squaddie in Iraq hands right now and they were joking about mad dogs and englishmen you would, rightly, perceive that as threatening.

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No-one is saying, no-one, that a racist joke couldn't be offensive. Got it? The point is that an anti-English joke told by my Scottish brother-in-laws would be designed to be funny, & not offend or dehumanise me. Therefore I am not offended or dehumanised.

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... and as I told you before, that is the privilege of safety. Now let me ask you this: lets say you were in a backwoods pub in Scotland, and the locals realise they have a sassenach amongst them. They start telling jokes about 101 uses for a dead sassenach. Are you so entirely comfortable? Or do you laugh with a slightly sick expression, showing submission and no threat, in the hope that they really are just fucking with your head rather than working themselves up, developing a consensus, that you can be taken out into the parking lot for a thorough kicking?

It might also be worth mentioning that, as mentioned on a prior thread, the smile reflex is an adaptation of an ape submission display. Humour and violence have an inherent relationship.

By this logic, since the wing of a bat is an adaptation of a mammalian arm, having arms and being able to fly have an inherent relationship and all mammals can fly..I guess you will next be arguing that the "ape kind" are all the same?

contracycle, So why do I find the anti-English joke funny? Why am I not dehumanised, why am I not offended? Because it seems to me that how I feel about it is absolutely the crux of the argument. I didn't build anything, you walked right into it. I ask again, yes or no, so it is possible for a -ist/-ism joke to be funny after all? Utterly irrelevant.I am not ignoring anti-English jokes, I am finding them funny, in the context of the joker & who is telling the joke, which allows me to make a judgement, am I being told a joke, or is ther joker deliberately setting out to offent me?So what if I feel safe? Of course I feel safe, or I wouldn't be laughing, would I? It really is all or nothing with you, isn't it? If I was having the shit kicked out of me it any given anti-English joke wouldn't be funny. If it was my Brother-in-laws telling the joke it would be.Like EVERYONE has been trying to tell, you, it is all about context. The decision to feel offended, or dehumanised is a subjective, personal one, depending wholly on context. What may offend me in one situation, won't in another. What offends someone else, may not offend me. This is such an obvious truth as to make your earlier claim that intent is irrelevant to be ridiculous. I would feel uncomfortable. What don't you understand about this?! As has been conceded by EVERYONE, racist jokes CAN be offensive. No argument. The point of debate is that you are saying they are offensive & dehumanising ALL the time, & everyone else says they are not. What do you hope to achieve by flogging a dead horse? The FACT remains that the "101 uses for a dead Englishman" gag can be funny in a one-on-one conversation with a Scotsman I know well. Therefore you ARE wrong in that I have been offended & dehumanised because my group was the butt of a joke.There are black people who laugh at black jokes, jews who laugh at jewish jokes, Irishmen who laugh at Irish jokes, etc. ad infinitum. They do not feel offended or dehumanised because of the environment (they feel "safe", for whatever reasons) in which the joke is said. Nor am I when I hear an anti-English joke in the right circumstances. Ergo, your black & white claim that racist jokes are dehumanising & offensive across the board, all the time is demonstrably wrong. Period.MarkThis message has been edited by mark24, 08-05-2004 09:46 AM

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

It figures you would bring these types of irrelevant comparisons into the debate when dealing with Syamsu-contracycle. Racist scum is just a subset of all scum, but all racists are scum. (I'm not paid by the word, and I don't get reimbursed for good spelling.) Aren't we beyond these sorts of hate-similes? It's just a fact that there's a connection between humor and violence, hence the term "knee-slapper." If you find chimps dressed up in suits funny, it's no wonder you live in Nazi Germany. I'd like to see all you genocidal racists rounded up and exterminated.regards,
Esteban "Joseph Noballs" Hambre

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If you find chimps dressed up in suits funny, it's no wonder you live in Nazi Germany. I'd like to see all you genocidal racists rounded up and exterminated.

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Just because you laugh when you hear "funnier than a barrel full of monkeys" does it mean you are going to capture and gas all the non-human primates at the zoo? You betcha you genocidal monkey spanker you. Thank the pink unicorn in the sky that we have the likes of contracycle here to run to Percy with complaints about your anti-primate behavior...and besides, if it were not for contracycle, the forum would be devoid of his precious holocaust jokes (but remember, in his case it is ok since "it is just a smile"....)

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I didn't build anything, you walked right into it. I ask again, yes or no, so it is possible for a -ist/-ism joke to be funny after all?

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Of course. The basic law of jokes is tension and relief. You establish tension and explosively relieve it; that is expressed by laughter.

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So what if I feel safe? Of course I feel safe, or I wouldn't be laughing, would I?

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Yes, exactly. So now, considering that 80% of women who die by violence do so at the hands of a relative or lover, a woman hearing a joke about shooting your staggering wife is not terribly likely to find that funny; more likely they find it threatening.This is exactly what Scraff reported. But note you cannot just flip the context; merely making a man the subject of this joke does not produce the same effect becuase men do not inhabit the same environment of fear visa a vis women as women inhabit vis a vis men.So yes, you laugh becuase you are comfortable. Because you are safe. Becuase there is no tangiobkle prospect that this dehumanisation will result in violence. And you can feel that as a release of pressure, and give the appropriate submission signal.

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Like EVERYONE has been trying to tell, you, it is all about context. The decision to feel offended, or dehumanised is a subjective, personal one, depending wholly on context.

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And as I have pointed out, that is arrant nonsense, and demonstrates only your lack of investigation into the topic.Duhumanisation is noit SUBJECTIVE at all, becuase you do not do it to yourself, you do it to others. I just explained this damnit.

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I would feel uncomfortable. What don't you understand about this?! As has been conceded by EVERYONE, racist jokes CAN be offensive.

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No, they are offensive, case closed. That is what they are for, their purpose. They CAN be funny IF you are safe and comfortable and feel the implicit threat as only nominal. That in no why elimiates their offensive nature, in fact it is the negation of this tension that causes humour.

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Therefore you ARE wrong in that I have been offended & dehumanised because my group was the butt of a joke.

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You are dehumanised whether you were there or not, heard it or not, found it funny or not, becuase the dehumanising aspect does not require your consent or presence.

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There are black people who laugh at black jokes, jews who laugh at jewish jokes, Irishmen who laugh at Irish jokes, etc. ad infinitum.

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Yes, there are. They are known as Uncle Tom's and House Niggers.

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They do not feel offended or dehumanised because of the environment (they feel "safe", for whatever reasons) in which the joke is said.

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Yes. They have more to gain by pandering to their masters than exercising their own humanity.

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Ergo, your black & white claim that racist jokes are dehumanising & offensive across the board, all the time is demonstrably wrong. Period.

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Your central error is the conceit that you are able to give some degree of consent to being dehumanised. Your argument fails on that basis.{Fixed quote boxes - AM}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-06-2004 05:05 PM

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regards,
Esteban "Joseph Noballs" Hambre

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Many a true word is spoken in jest, NoBalls.

I've just e-mailed the Administrator to tell him/her that you're not only dehumanizing me and everyone else on this board, but also dehumanizing primates and unicorns. Unfortunately his or her mailbox was full.By poking fun and dehumanizing me and people like me (there's another simile for you), you're actually preparing to kill me in the near future. I won't stand for this pre-murder any longer, so I'm going to lie down. If Andrea Dworkin were here, she'd say the same thing, probably. Ever since that racist Mark Twain wrote "Only a Nigger" in 1869, we've been battling racist white men trying to be funny and then hiding behind their "intent," which I assert is absolutely irrelevant. Not that I could understand it anyway. What's "irony"?regards,
Esteban "Racist Like Me" Hambre