Is there a correlation between religious fundamentalism and holocaust denying?

Taz writes:

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For example, people might not recognize "blitzkrieg", but they should at least heard of the Phony War. They might not recognize "luftwaffe" but they should have heard somewhere about the maginot line.

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Personally, I'd say the exact opposite for both of those things. It's more likely they've heard of "blitzkrieg" but not "Phony War." It's more likely they've heard of "Luftwaffe" but not "The Maginot Line.""Blitzkrieg" is still used in everyday speech. There's a videogame about the Luftwaffe.

crashfrog responds to Taz:

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Still being dumbfounded by this stranger's question, I said "fate".

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Well, it's actually "hubris"

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No, Oedipus Rex is about fate, not hubris. The classic tragic flaw of Greek drama is hubris, and Oedipus does have a moment of hubris when he kills his father, but the fundamental question has to do with fate.King Laius and Queen Jocasta of Thebes learn that she will bear a son that will kill his father. Appalled, she tells a servant to kill the child but he is unable to do so. Instead, he leaves it on the mountain to die of exposure. However, a shepherd finds the child and takes him to be raised by King Polybus and Queen Merope of Corinth.Oedipus then learns of the prophecy and its extension: Not only will he kill his father, but also he will marry his mother. Not wanting to kill the man he thinks is his father or marry the woman he thinks is his mother, he runs away. Along the road, he runs across another man, they get into a fight, and Oedipus kills him. He then comes across the Sphinx that is terrorizing Thebes, solves the riddle, and as a reward, is given the hand of the queen in marriage. Of course, we all know that the man he killed was his father and the woman he married was his mother.So, Oedipus had a moment of hubris in the killing of Laius as their dispute was merely over who had the right of way on the road. However, the plot hinges around the prophecy hanging over Oedipus' head and the irony of the story is embedded in all the work everyone does to try and escape it only to have those very actions cause it.After all, the play takes place long after the events described happened. Oedipus has been king for years and has many children with Jocasta. A plague has descended upon Thebes and seems to be because somebody murdered Laius. Oedipus makes it his mission to find out who did it and eventually learns that it was he who did it all those years ago. Jocasta commits suicide and Oedipus blinds himself. This isn't an issue of hubris. This is an issue of fate.This isn't to say that Oedipus was destined to do so. When he learned of the prophecy, he didn't have to run away. He chose to do so instead of sticking around and being vigilant in refusing to kill his father or marry his mother (at least the people he thought were such). He didn't have to kill Laius. He chose to do so rather than refusing to kill anyone. He didn't have to marry Jocasta. He chose to do so rather than refuse to marry anyone.The tragic flaw of Oedipus is not hubris but rather his inability to take clear information and act upon it in a rational way. Instead, he panics and thinks he has left everything behind him.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Not that I recall any detail about it, but I do recall that the "phony war" was referred to as the "sitzkrieg" (sitting war).Moose

See, all of these are obvious to me. I guess my flaw is I have trouble telling what should be obvious and what should not be obvious.Just curious. What do you think of sputnik? Is it obvious or not? I got some blank stares when I mentioned it a few weeks ago.

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Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

Again, if you reread what I said before, all the military code names were under the I-don't-care-if-you-know-them-or-not list. Any specific about anything is optional. I realize that.But not ever having heard of "holocaust denier" is like not ever having heard of something like the vietnam war or the hippies. Again, notice that the things I have listed for the must-know list are very trivial things. It's not like I require people to know my birthdate. Actually, here's a smilie back at you Look at Rrhain's reply to this. True true.

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Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

Wow. Are we talking about the same situation?You know, the one where a man, prophesied that he would murder his father and marry his mother, thinks himself able to suborn the gods who defined his destiny and strikes out on his own, only to enact, in his pride, the very prophecy that he sought to avoid?How is that not hubris to you? I understand that a work can be interpreted in many ways - hell, I continue to believe that Frost's "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening" is about Santa Claus, and I can support that with textual evidence - but the story of Oedipus is, like, the textbook example of hubris in Greek drama. From wiki: Hubris - Wikipedia

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Another example is that of Oedipus. In Oedipus the King, while on the road to Thebes, Oedipus meets King Laius of Thebes who is unknown to him as his biological father. Oedipus kills King Laius over which of them has the right of way, thereby fulfilling the prophecy of the oracle Loxias that Oedipus is destined to murder his own father.

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I don't want to turn this into a quibble about a fairly minor point, but I grew up with the story of Oedipus as a bedtime story - I''m from a theatre family, what can I say - and Oedipus Rex has always been told as a story of hubris.It's not just fate. It's about Oedipus thinking he can change his fate, that he is beyond fate, and, in his pride and arrogance, bringing about the very fate he sought to avoid.That's hubris. How is that not hubris?

Sorry, you're consistently the one on the other end of the 'people'... unless you think that the 'people' here are generally arguing in favour of your position /a *returns rattle to its rightful owner*JonAnyway... This should stop in this thread so we can let these good folk continue their meaningful debate

Already replied to. Oedipus is the story of a man who thinks himself above the power of fate, beyond fate, and in his pride and arrogance causes the very outcome he thought he had the power to avoid.That's hubris. How can that not be hubris?

Nator and Quetzal both supported my position in the philosophy thread, where I also posted a number of materials where people put forth positions similar to mine, and I'm hardly out on my own in any of the evolution threads, where I have the weight of the scientific consensus behind me.So I'm not sure what you think you're talking about, again. I'm aware that there's a small contingent of persons here who are convinced that I'm absolutely wrong about everything, that I'm arrogant and never accept correction on any issue, and that I'm dishonest and disingenuous as a matter of course.None of that is true, of course, but if you're absolutely determined to believe that about me nothing I post could ever possibly change your mind. It stops as soon as you stop it, Jon. It's your behavior that is disruptive.

crashfrog responds to me:

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No, Oedipus Rex is about fate, not hubris.

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Wow. Are we talking about the same situation?

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Yeah...you know all that plot description I put in? It's pretty clear what I was talking about.

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You know, the one where a man, prophesied that he would murder his father and marry his mother, thinks himself able to suborn the gods who defined his destiny and strikes out on his own, only to enact, in his pride, the very prophecy that he sought to avoid?

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No, that's not hubris. Hubris is not pride in and of itself. It's the gloating and shaming of one you have conquered. That's why I pointed out, specifically, that Oedipus does have a moment of hubris: His murder of Laius is over something trivial: Who has right of way on a road. But that isn't the point behind the play, Oedipus, the King, nor is it the big point behind the entire story of Oedipus.Fate in Greek drama and mythology wasn't some overbearing force, making you destined to take action despite anything you could do. Everything that Oedipus does is done with free will. Each choice he makes is made with clear understanding of what the prophecy is.Again, Oedipus did not have to marry Jocasta. Knowing that the prophecy was that he would marry his mother, why didn't he simply decide not to marry anybody? That'd defy the prophecy right there. The problem was not one of pride but one of judgement.Remember, Oedipus goes to the Oracle seeking an answer to a simple question: Are Polybus and Merope his parents? The answer he gets is that he will murder his father and marry his mother. Oedipus thinks the Oracle has ignored his question but in reality, he got the answer to his question: No, they're not. By any standard of rationality, if Oedipus truly thought they were his parents, he would never kill Polybus and marry Merope. Instead, his real parents are out there in the world somewhere and if he kills anybody or marries anybody, those people just might be his parents.But Oedipus doesn't see this. His flaw is not pride but judgement. Rather than seeing that this means that if he is to avoid the prophecy, he must become an ascetic and pacifist, he tries to have his cake and eat it, too: He can still kill people and still marry people so long as they aren't the people he thinks are his parents. It never occurs to him that those might not be his parents, even though that is precisely why he went to the Oracle in the first place: Because he had doubt that they were.

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How is that not hubris to you?

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Because that isn't the definition of hubris. Do not confuse the modern, English use of the word with the Ancient Greek, dramatic use.Oedipus did not seek to defy the prophecy in order to achieve glory. That's what hubris is: The puffing up of oneself by shaming others. Oedipus has his moments of pride (he goes on about how he was the one who defeated the Sphinx), but that's not what causes his downfall. He didn't run away from Corinth out of pride but out of fear. While he did kill Laius out of pride (and as I said, that is a moment of hubris), he doesn't marry Jocasta out of pride but out of hope that this will show the prophecy to be false.

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but the story of Oedipus is, like, the textbook example of hubris in Greek drama.

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No, Oedipus is the textbook example of irony. Nowadays, "ironic" is simply a euphemism for "snarkily self-aware," but the true definition of irony is the attempt to stand athwart fate and yet those very actions are the ones that cause said fate to happen.Hubris is the attempt to inflate one's self-importance by the shaming of others. The story of Oedipus isn't about that, even though there is a moment of hubris in it.

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From wiki

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Ahem. Did you bother to read that article before you posted? That was the very second sentence, crash.Where do we find Oedipus taking pride in his attempt to avoid the prophecy?

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I don't want to turn this into a quibble about a fairly minor point, but I grew up with the story of Oedipus as a bedtime story

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Um, crash? I'm Greek. I had read both the Iliad and the Odyssey by the time I made it to third grade.

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I''m from a theatre family

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Do I need to remind you that I'm an actor, crash? That picture in the profile is of me playing Adam playing Jess playing Hamlet from The Complete Works of William Shakespeare (abridged) (it gets complicated).

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what can I say - and Oedipus Rex has always been told as a story of hubris.

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I know what I can say: You've been hoodwinked.Oedipus, the King is a story of irony and fate.

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It's not just fate.

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Well, of course it isn't "just" fate. It wouldn't be much of a story if it were. But just because there are moments of hubris within the story doesn't mean the story is about hubris or that hubris is a dominant player.Romeo and Juliet has a suicide in it, but it isn't a play about suicide. It wouldn't be a tragedy if the characters lived and the use of suicide as the method of their death is certainly a dramatic way of achieving the tragic result, but suicide is not the central thesis of the play. It is a story of love that cannot survive.

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It's about Oedipus thinking he can change his fate, that he is beyond fate, and, in his pride and arrogance, bringing about the very fate he sought to avoid.

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Oh, where to begin...that statement isn't even wrong."Beyond" fate? Where to begin? Oedipus certainly doesn't think he is beyond fate. Prophecy isn't destiny and the Greeks had no problem with working against it. That's the entire point behind Oedipus: The prophecy could have been thwarted if everybody had simply made different choices. If Jocasta had kept the child, he wouldn't have grown up to kill Laius as she could have raised him to respect his father. If she had decided to kill the child herself, he wouldn't have grown up to kill Laius. If the servant had gone through with it, Oedipus wouldn't have survived. If Polybus and Merope had simply been honest with Oedipus, he never would have gone to the Oracle and become panic-stricken about what he would do. If Oedipus had simply taken the prophecy as a warning, he could have stayed and never killed or married anybody. He didn't have to run away. He didn't have to kill Laius. He didn't have to marry Jocasta.Nobody in the entire story was ever forced to do anything. Everything was done through free will. That's why the story of Oedipus is about irony and the question of fate vs. free will, not hubris: There is a prophecy and the freely chosen actions of everybody involved trying to avoid those results have the exact opposite effect.

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How is that not hubris?

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Because hubris about about shaming another to make yourself seem more important.Where did Oedipus declare himself to be "beyond fate," as you put it?Remember: Oedipus sends Creon to the Oracle at Delphi, the very same one he fled all those years ago, to find out what to do about the plague besetting Thebes. He then summons Tiresias, the seer, for more help. If Oedipus truly thought that he was "beyond fate," why would he seek out those who deal in it?Again, this isn't to say that there are no moments of hubris to be found.It's that the story of Oedipus isn't about hubris. It's about irony and fate.Compare Oedipus to Jason. Jason marries Glauke in order to claim higher position and shames Medea which leads her to poison Glauke and murder his children. Because he broke his vow to be true to Medea, he is castigated and dies when the Argo falls on him. That's hubris. Medea is filled with hubris, too, in that she humiliates her family (killing her own brother!) so that she can latch herself onto Jason's star...only to be dropped when a better political bride comes along. The entire story is about people lording it over others and having all that they thought they could achieve being taken away because of that insistence upon shame.Where is the shaming act of Oedipus? It's there when he kills Laius...not out of respect to the prophecy but because he got himself into a snit over who had right of way on a road.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

crashfrog writes:

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Oedipus is the story of a man who thinks himself above the power of fate, beyond fate, and in his pride and arrogance causes the very outcome he thought he had the power to avoid.

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That's hubris.

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No, that's irony.And no, Oedipus did not think of himself as "above the power of fate, beyond fate." His downfall has nothing to do with pride or arroagance.

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How can that not be hubris?

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Because the definition of hubris is not simply pride. It is the shaming of others to inflate yourself. The story of Oedipus and his downfall has nothing to do with him shaming others (though he does do so at one point). It has to do with irony and the question of fate vs. free will.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Damn it, Rrhain, you keep getting to it before me.

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Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

Let's just say I am a holocaust denier, denier, and leave it at that.But seriously, if I did hear of it, I must have forgot, but I don't see how, as I find it very repulsive, and insulting to the Jews. Something like that would have stood out in my mind. Those turds do not even deserve the time of day IMO.The only thing I ask is that you be open minded enough to understand there is a possibility that I never heard of it. I mean it's all in what you pay attention to, and where you gear your interests.

No, irony is when outcomes differ from what is expected, like the way it's ironic that a guy who's avatar is a production photo of himself performing on the stage doesn't recognize hubris in one of its famous textbook examples, yet presumes to lecture others about Greek drama. It has everything to do with Oedipus's desire to transcend his fate, to act outside of his appointed role, to reject his destiny as determined for him, by the Fates.That's hubris - when one seeks to act outside their place in the natural order. Oedipus knew the fate to which he had been appointed; his downfall was seeking to escape that fate.That's hubris. That's why Oedipus Rex is a central example of hubris in every drama course.Is any of this on-topic?Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

Ah, a late bloomer, then. Maybe that's why it didn't occur to you that the concept of "hubris" might be a little more complex than simply "pride goeth before a fall" or "improving oneself by shaming others", and that the modern usage and its usage in Greek drama aren't as different as you make them out to be, if you understand the term in the context of ancient Greek views about the nature of fate and the place of a person in the world. Who isn't? I've seen the Reduced Shakespeare Company in about six or seven different performances. Shakespeare is pretty good on a good night but I enjoyed Complete History of America (abridged) a lot more. If you think that's the point then you missed the point. The point is not that people could have made difference choices; the point is that hubris made them make the choices they did, and as a result they were condemned to what they hoped to avoid.That's hubris. When you think you know better than your betters, but it turns out you don't.