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Author Topic:   Setting the record straight on hunting accidents
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 129 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 46 of 71 (288437)
02-19-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Murphy
02-19-2006 7:52 PM


Re: You're just making it worse for Cheney.
Reading your construction of the event leads me more and more to believe that you've never hunted upland birds... unless in one of those shooting gallery huntclub stagings.
They had no dogs.
No stamp. No dogs. No cattle, either.
All hat.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 7:52 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:22 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 71 (288471)
02-19-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Omnivorous
02-19-2006 7:59 PM


Re: You're just making it worse for Cheney.
I would certainly doubt that any halfway serious quail hunters in Texas would go out without a dog. Where did you hear they had no dogs?
From what I read, the stamp is something new there and they only give warnings for those who don't have them. I also read that Cheney had sent in for a stamp, don't know if that was before or after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Omnivorous, posted 02-19-2006 7:59 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Omnivorous, posted 02-19-2006 10:34 PM Murphy has replied

  
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 71 (288476)
02-19-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
02-19-2006 7:59 PM


You're right.
I'll just accept that Cheney drank a whole beer a matter of seconds before being at one end of your line, swept the entire line with his shotgun, intentionally shot his friend sneaking up behind him, left him there for dead while dining with his hunting friends and plotting how to cover it all up. Of course that's what happened. That's why everyone there blames Cheney for being careless and trying to kill them and that's why the lawyer he killed is suing him and attacking his poor hunting skills.
I'm tired of your wild theories that refuse to follow the facts of the story. I guess everyone's wrong because they sure don't agree with your accessment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 02-19-2006 7:59 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-19-2006 10:44 PM Murphy has replied
 Message 57 by FliesOnly, posted 02-20-2006 8:05 AM Murphy has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 129 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 49 of 71 (288477)
02-19-2006 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Murphy
02-19-2006 10:22 PM


Re: You're just making it worse for Cheney.
You're absolutely right, Murphy.
An early report concluded there were no dogs because the guy who got shot went after his own birds.
But this report says otherwise:
They were up before 8 Saturday and headed out in two groups, with outriders on horseback to flush the birds and about a dozen American pointers and Labrador retrievers.
Cheney sent in his $7 for the stamp after the shooting.
But even with outriders(!} and a dozen dogs, he's still all hat.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:22 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:41 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 71 (288479)
02-19-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Omnivorous
02-19-2006 10:34 PM


Re: You're just making it worse for Cheney.
What is an "American Pointer"?? I've had a couple English Pointers, one out of Oklahoma and one from Texas... both were great dogs but I've not even heard of an 'American'. Is that some new cross or something?
Most 'big' hunters are more hat than substance. Personally, I question shooting anything with a 28 gauge, leaves too many cripples. But of course with that many labs, they should clear the field. I wonder why the guy was going after his bird instead of getting a dog to retrieve it. Maybe the dogs were all way ahead with the rest of the group.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Omnivorous, posted 02-19-2006 10:34 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Omnivorous, posted 02-19-2006 10:52 PM Murphy has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 51 of 71 (288480)
02-19-2006 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Murphy
02-19-2006 10:33 PM


Re: You're right.
I'll just accept that Cheney drank a whole beer a matter of seconds before being at one end of your line, swept the entire line with his shotgun, intentionally shot his friend sneaking up behind him, left him there for dead while dining with his hunting friends and plotting how to cover it all up. Of course that's what happened. That's why everyone there blames Cheney for being careless and trying to kill them and that's why the lawyer he killed is suing him and attacking his poor hunting skills.
I'm tired of your wild theories that refuse to follow the facts of the story. I guess everyone's wrong because they sure don't agree with your accessment.
Murphy, get ready to be called out on it when you erect straw-men during debates here. I would recommend you not use this tactic when debating on the board.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:33 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:52 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 71 (288484)
02-19-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-19-2006 10:44 PM


Re: You're right.
So 'debate' here is setting up your own parameters and denegrating anyone who doesn't conform to them? I tried to discuss the reasonable situation as it appeared and as I've experienced. Others have brought in information that helped clarify, yet everyone was wrong. For them to be right, he had to be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-19-2006 10:44 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-19-2006 11:44 PM Murphy has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 129 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 53 of 71 (288485)
02-19-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Murphy
02-19-2006 10:41 PM


Re: You're just making it worse for Cheney.
I dunno, Murphy, but the same story I quoted about the dogs said the guy who got shot did take a dog with him to look for his birds. If I had a dozen dogs, I wouldn't be chasing my own birds, or I'd get some better dogs.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:41 PM Murphy has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 54 of 71 (288486)
02-19-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Murphy
02-19-2006 10:52 PM


Re: You're right.
Absolutely not Murphy. In fact I believe it is against the forum rules to denigrate your opponent.
This is what a straw man argument is. I hope you see why I pointed out your post as an example of it.
Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
Examples of Straw Man
1. Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."
2. "Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."
3. Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:52 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 11:02 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9012
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 55 of 71 (288487)
02-19-2006 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
02-19-2006 7:59 PM


Learning a lot
Well, other than commiting murder on an oil can with a shotgun at about 10 paces I've never been hunting. I'm learning a lot.
It is obvious to me though that you are the person I would go hunting with, Jar, if I was to go. (could we make it just fierce, unpredictable, oil cans though).
Murphey sounds a bit dangerous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 02-19-2006 7:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 02-20-2006 12:21 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 71 (288493)
02-20-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by NosyNed
02-19-2006 11:51 PM


Re: Learning a lot
Well, Ned, I would be honored to take you hunting anytime. But before we went out we'd spend some time learning what you need to know to stay safe. Guns, shooting and hunting are dangerous. Guns are not toys. Safety has to be the very first and overriding consideration at all times.
There are a few rules, not very many at all, not even Ten Commandments, that if you follow them, when you have an ND (Negligent Discharge), and anyone that shoots long enough WILL have an ND, no one gets hurt. The rules are really simple.
  1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
  2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
  3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
  4. ALWAYS know what is in your line of fire.
  5. NEVER point a gun at something you don't plan on shooting.
The rest is common sense. Don't mix alcohol and shooting.
Frankly, I cannot imagine why Murphy objected to any of my posts. Even Cheney admits it was his fault. He screwed the pooch. He broke just about every one of the rules.
Shooting, whether hunting or target practice, in a group or alone, with rifles, shotguns or pistols can be a safe and enjoyable sport. But not unless the participants acknolwedge their responsibility to handle firearms with respect. And when a prominent person like the Vice-President of the US does not follow the rules it reflects baddly on all of us who try very hard to promote firearms safety.
To all who read this thread. The NRA has a program called Eddie Eagle designed for kids. It is designed to teach them safety, to teach them to respect the power and danger involved in firearms, to instill an attitude of Safety First. It is designed for both shooters and for the kid who might someday come upon a firearm. The goal is not to recruit new shooters, but to keep everyone, sportmen and bystanders safe.
You can find information for parents here
Whether you support hunting, sport shooting, or even gun ownership, or if you are totally opposed guns and firearms, please check out the Eddie Eagle program.
Let's keep everyone safe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NosyNed, posted 02-19-2006 11:51 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4399 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 57 of 71 (288561)
02-20-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Murphy
02-19-2006 10:33 PM


Re: You're right.
Murphy writes:
I'll just accept that Cheney drank a whole beer a matter of seconds before being at one end of your line,...and that's why the lawyer he killed is suing him and attacking his poor hunting skills.
Ya know, I started this thread to point out a "few" errors in the story given to explain the shooting. The "he didn’t announce his return" nonsense is just that. Listen Murphy, I'm not sure why you are so upset with jar and his assessment of what Cheney did wrong. Honestly, I can't understand it. It's really quite simple in my book. I hunt a lot of different game animals... and one thing I never do is fire my weapon if I do not know where each and every member of my party is located. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? I have passed up numerous shots because I was not sure of what lay beyond my target, or if someone I was hunting with was not with us, or if I felt that taking the shot might be dangerous (weird angle, low target, etc).
Here’s something else to consider. The hunting party KNEW that Mr. Whittington had dropped back to recover a downed bird. There's absolutely no way Cheney, or anyone else in the group, should have pulled the trigger till they knew where the hell he was. Think about it...Cheney most certainly should have known that Mr. Whittington was behind him...that's where the friggen left him. Why then, did he follow the bird and shot in that direction? So, as jar has pointed out, Mr. Cheney broke a number of "rules" that resulted in this accident.
As far as I know, no one here is claiming that Cheney shot him on purpose...we're just saying that if Cheney had followed some basic rules of proper hunting, this whole mess would have been avoided.
And I won’t even mention that alcohol, stuff. Wait . yes I will. You never mix the two . never. I have never had a drink on the same day that I was going to hunting. No one I have hunted with has ever (at least not in my presence or that I was made aware of) had a drink on the same day that we were going to go hunting. It’s just a stupid and dangerous thing to do, so quit trying to justify it.
As for you ridiculous claim that if Bill Clinton had done this, it wouldn't have been an issue. Get real. The Republicans and the press would have hung him from a cherry tree down by the Potomac...and you know it. How short the Republican memory can be when it comes to the crap they put Clinton through (not that he didn't deserve much of it). But to claim that this poor administration is treated much more harshly than was Clinton's is a complete joke (and also off topic).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 10:33 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 10:14 AM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 59 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 10:20 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 71 (288595)
02-20-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by FliesOnly
02-20-2006 8:05 AM


Re: You're right.
I have stated that Cheney is responsible for his actions. However, for all the things that he has been accused of to be true, the police report must be false, all the hunting companions must be wrong and the guy who got shot must be wrong.
I'm looking at this through the perspective of what happens in the field, not from a textbook theory. I've never liked to hunt in large groups exactly for the possibility of someone getting 'lost'. That doesn't mean that I'm in favor of being dangerous with any gun.
It does mean that I don't like to hang a person one doesn't like by made up 'evidence'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by FliesOnly, posted 02-20-2006 8:05 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 71 (288597)
02-20-2006 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by FliesOnly
02-20-2006 8:05 AM


Re: You're right.
"Here’s something else to consider. The hunting party KNEW that Mr. Whittington had dropped back to recover a downed bird. There's absolutely no way Cheney, or anyone else in the group, should have pulled the trigger till they knew where the hell he was. Think about it...Cheney most certainly should have known that Mr. Whittington was behind him...that's where the friggen left him. Why then, did he follow the bird and shot in that direction? So, as jar has pointed out, Mr. Cheney broke a number of "rules" that resulted in this accident."
Sounds like you haven't read the police report either. The guy went back to the vehicle about 100 yards away from the located covey. Then he decided to go to where they were. He should have announced that he was coming up behind them. In rolling terrain, 100 yards could be over a couple of rises, completely out of shotgun range and sight.
Again, people are 'hanging' Cheney because they don't like him and doing so on 'evidence' that isn't consistent with the members of the hunting party's statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by FliesOnly, posted 02-20-2006 8:05 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 60 of 71 (288603)
02-20-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Murphy
02-19-2006 7:44 PM


You'll say anything to blame someone who everyone on the scene doesn't blame.
"And it's not Harry's fault. Ultimately, I'm the guy that pulled the trigger and shot my friend." - Dick Cheney.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Murphy, posted 02-19-2006 7:44 PM Murphy has not replied

  
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