Setting the record straight on hunting accidents

"I just had one beer." Isn't that what drunk drivers always say?1) We have no way to determine how many beers Cheney had had, and when he had had them, short of a blood-alcohol analysis performed at the time of the accident.2) The police were not allowed even the briefest contact with Cheney until hours later, long after whatever alcohol was in his system would have left it. Coverup? Draw your own conclusions, I guess.I don't see any indication that the police actually investigated a single thing.

Well concidering the US armed forces record of Blue-on-Blue kills, Cheney just seems to be folowing the fine US tradition...

I see you have a Clinton thang, Murphy: I always enjoy those. But why do you think hypothetical scenarios involving Clinton are relevant to real events involving Cheney? Clinton has been out of office for more than five years now. Get over it--hate somebody else.Besides, you won't find a big Clinton fan club here. When you start ranting about Slick Willie in the midst of a discussion about Cheney, it looks like you're just trying to change the subject--which you are.The point of "sitting down to dinner" is not that Cheney didn't care about his friend, but that he was composed enough and had time enough to eat dinner but couldn't be disturbed to speak to an investigating officer. He says he made no contact with the media or law authorities because his only thought was getting help for his buddy--but that's not what he was doing. He didn't transport the guy to the hospital, he didn't go there later--he just stayed for dinner. Why wouldn't he talk to the police?

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Ah, right. "According to the best intelligence we had", Wittington was a quail. I guess that makes it totally fine, right?It was just an intelligence failure.

They sure do. But once they move out of YOUR zone of fire, you hold. Finger off the trigger. No it doesn't. It changes ONLY based on where the other folk in the party happen to be. He came up from behind them. Cheney screwed the pooch. He covered the line. He did not know where everyone was. He did not know what he was shooting at.Sorry, Cheney turned an ND, somthing that happens to every shooter sooner or later, into an accident. Cheney was wrong. That is a terrible indictment of hunters. I wish I could say that it doesn't happen, but unfortunately, it does. And it's behavior of idiots like that that caused me to give up hunting. You do not do things that increase the risks.It's bad enough when some red neck takes the cooler of beer along in the pickup when going on a shoot, but when it's a public figure, someone who should be setting an example, it's even worse. Maybe not in your world, but I pronmise you it's the norm in mine. And it's also the norm in the world of anyone I shoot with.I remember a wonderful day at a friend's place outside Austin, shooting at the range on his property. He and his wife put on a great spread we could enjoy sitting out on the deck, elk stew, beef stew, and soft drinks. That's right, soft drinks. Not one of the shooters had anything to drink other than coffee, tea and soda until after we finished shooting. Then it was more stew, beer, some great 40 year old Port and fresh baked breads.Sorry, drinking and shooting do not mix.The rest of your post has nothing to do with anything I've said and bringing up President Clinton was also totally off topic. Bet you'd love to change the subject, but the subject is that Cheney didn't break just one rule, he broke every rule in the book.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'll paraphrase a friend that works with the Bush administration (but doesn't agree with their policies):Cheney didn't have a PAO or Legal Department with him. Cheney is smart enough to know you don't do ANYTHING until you've spoken with them. I'm sure his hunting buddies would have agreed with that. Examples of public figures that didn't discuss things with a PAO:Nagin: Chocolate City
Trent Lott: Thurmond for president
Quayle: Erection doll

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I don't like that these people should need the protection of PAOs, but the Public is a cruel beast and its almost always better to say nothing for a while rather than say something stupid/ill thought straight away.

"No it doesn't. It changes ONLY based on where the other folk in the party happen to be."That is what I was talking about and what the guy who got shot stated. When he was shot he was not a member of the party... he'd left and didn't notify anyone he was returning. Cheney did not shoot at someone in the party.As for Slick, the question was what would be the charges if it weren't Cheney. I'm sure that he wouldn't be accused of all the things that Cheney has been. Not trying to change the subject, just trying to show how subjective the statments have been.

Just a fact to consider. According to Department of Natural Resources hunting statistics the majority of accidental shootings involves one member of a hunting party shooting another. It is my guess that the bigger the party the more likely the accident. I hunt alone or in groups of 3 or less including myself. When deer hunting I always hunt alone.

Sorry but that is a cop out and simply shows you know NOTHING about hunting or shooting.fo folk that may not have been dove hunting, let me outline the procedure.Dove hunting is an open field hunt. Usually you try to move with the sun behind your back. The hunters form a line and slowly walk across a field. They move at the same speed and no one moves faster than the slowest.No One goes forward unless they call out to make sure that the line is Cold, meaning each hunter acknowledges and ALL guns are muzzle down and on safety or opened, and No One goes out ahead of the line until he is damn sure that every hunter there has acknowledged the line cold. The line remains Cold until THAT Person comes back and announces the line Hot again.If he had gone forward (and no one in their right mind walks out in front of a bunch of shotguns without announcing it) the the line was cold. Any bird flushed during that is free. No one shoots.The line is important. Each hunter has an area in front of him, basically between 45^o to the right and left of directly in front of him. There is another do not fire zone that we'll get to in a minute.But the report was that he had dropped behind and so the line went on. If so he was behind the line. This is important and we will come back to it.Quail are crafty little birds. The dogs work out in front of the hunters and when they startle a covey them little suckers shoot straight up in the air. And they do explode. It's a sound like no other and they are up and away.Back to areas where you do not shoot.Remember the dogs? Well, you don't shoot at anything below shoulder height. Don't want to shoot your dogs. Folk get upset losing a good dog. It's not like shooting a lawyers, dogs have value.So the area where you can shoot is shoulder height and above, and 45^o right and left of directly in front of you.Now remember them quail. They explode straight up in the air and when you are shooting a moving target you lead the shot. That means you aim where the sucker is gonna be, not where it is. You shoot slightly high and ahead of the flight path.So here is the situation.If the guy was behind the line even if no one knew he was there, the only way he could be shot was if Cheney broke the rules and shot below his zone and out of his zone.If the guy was in front of the line, then the line would be cold and the guy out front was the ONLY person who could call the line hot again. So if Cheney shot him, Cheney broke the rules.Cheney screwed the pooch. There is no other possibility. If it had been President Clinton I would say exactly the same things, so your insertion is simply crap. Not only is it crap, it is uninformed crap.Cheney screwed the pooch.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sounds good, on paper. First of all we're talking quail, not dove. Second, if the dog was some kind of pointer, and the south is noted for breeding great pointing dogs, then the dog would be on point and the hunters would get situated and ready. Some dog owners want to flush the birds themselves. I've preferred, and trained my dogs to flush on command so that the birds will tend to fly away from me. I don't remember ever hunting quail with more than 3 people, but I've known many that do. In this case, according to the police report, the guy had been over 100 yds away from where the 2nd covey was located and the hunters had walked to. He said that he'd told them to go on while he hunted a couple of downed birds. (should've had a pointer that was also a retriever.)
All of your 'hot' and 'cold' means nothing if the party was split and 100 yds apart. As I said, Cheney did not shoot anyone in the party, the guy joining the group, as you've stated, should've let them know he was coming up on them. The guy stated he should've done that and doesn't hold Cheney responsible. I don't see how you could know more about it than he does! As for the 'shoulder high' idea, I've seen quail fly 10 feet off the ground and 2 feet off the ground... I guess they haven't all been told they are supposed to fly at shoulder height. However, your 'ideal' doesn't fit this situation either as the guy was shot at shoulder height, even though he was in a draw and basically hidden from the party. Sounds to me like Cheney was shooting at a low bird, could have been an injured bird, and the guy who had told them to leave him 100 yds back walked into a firing zone.
I'm sure you've always gone over the ridge to make sure there was no one there before you shot at anything, even if your line is 'hot'.

Yup. Very good. Thanks for confirming that. Yup, but TTBOMK it's still considered bad form to shoot the dogs. Yup, that's the story I heard too. And if true, it makes Cheney even more of a dufus. I know, hard to believe.If the person was coming up from behind then Cheney shot behind the line. That means not only did he shoot the poor guy, he swept the other members of the party. It just gets worse and worse for him, doesn't it? I never said anything about where they should fly, but rather where hunters should shoot. A bird hunter that takes a ground shot is sure to be the brunt of jokes for the rest of his life. Ground shot eh? LOL And there is no firing zone behind the line. So let's get this straight, now according to you Cheney has threatened everybody in the party by sweeping them, shot someone behind the line, someone in a ditch and lower them him. What a dork.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

"And there is no firing zone behind the line. So let's get this straight, now according to you Cheney has threatened everybody in the party by sweeping them, shot someone behind the line, someone in a ditch and lower them him. What a dork."You'll say anything to blame someone who everyone on the scene doesn't blame.
You're the one who set up this imaginary 'line'. You're the one who says that Cheney threatened everyone in your 'line' by sweeping them with the shotgun. Would this be a good point to mention that there are 2 points on a line that a person can sweep and not endanger anyone... either end. A person in either of those positions could swing on a bird without endangering anyone, unless that person came up on them without letting them know, as the guy said he did. You laugh at a low flying bird, which to me says you've not hunted in rolling terrain because quail tend to follow the terrain and would go over a rise into a draw low, especially if wounded.(which could or could not be the case) I've hunted quail where they could be lost in a draw 20 to 30 yards away. The guy said he was in a draw, lower than the hunters and thus would be difficult to see if one was following a bird. Have you read the police report?

"Yup, but TTBOMK it's still considered bad form to shoot the dogs."
Who said anything about shooting the dogs? The dog points the bird(s), they flush up and out just as you said. Unless the dog is extremely tall or the hunter is sitting on the ground, shooting over the dogs will not hit them. The dogs certainly would not even be in the picture with birds going anywhere except straight ahead.
Reading your construction of the event leads me more and more to believe that you've never hunted upland birds... unless in one of those shooting gallery huntclub stagings.

Cheney in his one TV interview said the worst moment of his life was when he saw his buddy fall.By his own admission, Cheney pulled the trigger before he knew what was in his line of fire.

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"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night Save lives! Click here!
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I'm not the one, it's his actions that betrayed him. I didn't set up some imaginary line, that's basic. And as to the end of the line that still doesn't absolve him.You just don't shoot unles you know what is in the line of fire. Even on the end of the line you do not shoot behind you. You know why? Because you have not been looking in that direction and someone may have come up behind you.Sorry Cheney shot two people, one in the face and chest and shot himself in the foot. What a dufuss.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion