boasts of Athiests II

In the physical world, but not the realm of truth.

I'll see if I can get this to work.
You might check Here.
To see a further example of the difficulty fundamentalist have with levels of abstraction. I am refining my understanding of literalism as a dependency on the abstract models they have of actuality conflated with the actuality itself.lfenEdited by AdminNWR, : fix broken link (inappropriate space removed)

You are asserting the existence of Platonic archetypes? Can you point out this realm of truth?How can you establish that is something beyond what you've imagined?lfen

Nothing to do with Plato, but in order to say what I'm saying I don't have to be asserting that the Realm of Truth actually exists, merely that if it does it is objective and unchanging.

That is like saying if the land of the big rock candy mountain exists, then "the jails are made of tin,
And you can walk right out again as soon as you are in".True, but then what has that to do with the price of tea in China?lfen

At the simplest level all we are talking about is objective truth versus subjective opinion, pretty ordinary stuff we all talk about all the time, so I don't know why you are making this into some big Problem. I do understand, of course, that the very idea of objective truth is no longer fashionable, since Postmodernism and Moral Relativism took over, but this kind of argument doesn't go anywhere. Maybe Robin will have more to say about it.

You stated your premise conditionally and thus could assume the Realm of Truth is whatever you wantd it to be IF it existed. I was just pointing out that if we had bacon we could have bacon and eggs, if we had eggs.What or where is this Realm of Truth which IF it exists is unchanging and objective? And if it doesn't exist then what?lfen

Where did I "state my premise conditionally?"Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to be riding some hobbyhorse of your own.

The word "If" is a condition as in "If it exists" is the condition
If that statement is true you then assert that
"it is objective and unchanging".But you didn't assert that it did exist only that if it did it would be such and such. But why? I was pointing out that anyone can make any if statement of that form and assert whatever they like. Since there is no implication of existence then it doesn't matter. If the FSM exists then it's noodly appendages push us against the ground. Well, it doesn't exist so there are no noodly appendages.lfen

No the "if" is not a "condition" as you are misconstruing it. The objectivity and unchangingness of the Realm of Truth is not dependent on its existing, it's definitional. It doesn't matter whether it exists or not, is the point, the definition of truth is that it is objective and unchanging. I'm simply trying to establish what I MEAN BY truth as opposed to subjective opinion. It ought to be obvious but nothing is obvious around here.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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So hard to figure out what your problem is.

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Personal or subjective value/opinion = no truth value.
Personal or subjective value/opinion = matters to the person who holds it
Personal or subjective value/opinion = matters to person and has no truth value.
Objective value or statement = truth value, matters in itself apart from who holds it.

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It seems to me that the problem is that Robin hasn't explained why he holds that subjective views have no truth-value. A statement that has no truth-value is meaningless but we accept personal and subjective statements as having meaning. So on the face of it, Robin's claim is clearly false. Hence, if Robin has a point he needs to explain it.a

If by "meaning" we mean a definite idea that can be communicated to another, then of course such statements have meaning.

If they have meaning, then they have a truth-value. It's not much of a "definite idea" if it can't be true or false.

By "truth-value" do you mean, such statements MIGHT be objectively true?

I'd say so. Happiness is subjective, but the statement "I am happy" is objectively true or false.