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Author Topic:   Life! What a concept!
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 16 of 44 (448822)
01-15-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nwr
01-15-2008 1:00 AM


Digital or what?
nwr writes:
In this discussion there appears to be an assumption that life is digital. I likewise believe that to be a faulty assumption.
You may be right. But can you identify anything in nature besides life that engages digital information, genetic otherwise, to communicate structural and functional analogs from one generation to the next?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nwr, posted 01-15-2008 1:00 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 01-15-2008 12:12 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 24 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 5:43 PM Fosdick has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 17 of 44 (448825)
01-15-2008 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 11:29 AM


Re: Digital or what?
Only life has generations, in the sense in which you are using it.
I distinguish between "uses digital" and "is digital". It is the latter that I question.

Let's end the political smears

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 11:29 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 12:32 PM nwr has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 18 of 44 (448833)
01-15-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by nwr
01-15-2008 12:12 PM


Re: Digital or what?
nwr writes:
I distinguish between "uses digital" and "is digital". It is the latter that I question.
Yes, of course. But the key word in the latter is "is." As such, you may be working on an ontological landscape. That's like asking, What kind of "being" does life have? Certainly life exists. And certainly life requires gooey chemicals, just like music requires musical instruments. Who would disagree? But life goes beyond the gooey and the instrumental. Life fits through a very narrow aperture called fertilization. That's where the digital part becomes really interesting, because there isn't much of any analogs that get through that tiny hole.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 01-15-2008 12:12 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 01-15-2008 12:39 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 21 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 2:49 PM Fosdick has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 19 of 44 (448836)
01-15-2008 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 12:32 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Fertilization is seen in sexual reproduction, but not in asexual reproduction. I don't see fertilization as characterizing life.

Let's end the political smears

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 12:32 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 20 of 44 (448860)
01-15-2008 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nwr
01-15-2008 8:42 AM


Re: It's always fun ...
That omission is telling us something.
From the first sentence in Seth's talk.
I'd like to step back from talking about life itself.
You really should read something before you spout off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nwr, posted 01-15-2008 8:42 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 21 of 44 (448862)
01-15-2008 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 12:32 PM


Re: Digital or what?
HM, let's try to stay on topic. If you'd like to comment on the contents of the .pdf, that's fine.
But I don't want this thread to turn into "What's life?". That isn't what any of those guys are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 12:32 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 3:24 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 22 of 44 (448877)
01-15-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 2:49 PM


Re: Digital or what?
molbio writes:
HM, let's try to stay on topic. If you'd like to comment on the contents of the .pdf, that's fine.
Well, excuse me, then. In the subject .pdf of your OP, Seth Lloyd says this:
quote:
It's interesting because in fact the digital nature of genetic information, the fact that it's seven billion bits that can easily be written into a computer hard drive, makes genetic information much more like the information in computers and it can be manipulated in that way. Whereas strangely enough, our mental information, the information that's in our brains, is much less digital in a fashion, and much harder to get hold of.
So do you want to discuss the digital claims made in the subject .pdf or not? Or do you just want to bitch at somebody?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 2:49 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 4:30 PM Fosdick has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 23 of 44 (448904)
01-15-2008 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 3:24 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Well, excuse me, then. In the subject .pdf of your OP, Seth Lloyd says this:
If you'd like to debate the digital nature of DNA, fine.
If you'd like to debate the nature of life, please take it to the appropriate thread: Message 1.
Had you bothered to read the .pdf, you would have noticed the first sentence of Seth Lloyd's talk:
I'd like to step back from talking about life itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 3:24 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 7:17 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 24 of 44 (448914)
01-15-2008 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Fosdick
01-15-2008 11:29 AM


Re: Digital or what?
quote:
But can you identify anything in nature besides life that engages digital information, genetic otherwise, to communicate structural and functional analogs from one generation to the next?
Prions and the elements inside a burning star. Neither is considered "life" by any conventional mean and both pass on "digital" information to the next generation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 11:29 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:01 PM teen4christ has replied
 Message 31 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2008 7:24 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 25 of 44 (448926)
01-15-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 5:43 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Teen, please. If you'd like to debate the nature of "life v. nonlife", please take it to the appropriate thread:
Message 1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 5:43 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 6:07 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 26 of 44 (448930)
01-15-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 6:01 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Where in my post did you get the idea I was talking about the nature of life vs nonlife?
You said in post 23 that
quote:
If you'd like to debate the digital nature of DNA, fine.
I just pointed out to Hoot Mon that DNA isn't the only way "digital" information could be passed on from one generation to the next.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:01 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:25 PM teen4christ has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 27 of 44 (448939)
01-15-2008 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 6:07 PM


Re: Digital or what?
I just pointed out to Hoot Mon that DNA isn't the only way "digital" information could be passed on from one generation to the next.
You aren't discussing the digital nature of DNA.
You are discussing prions and stars.
And, for the record, prions are not passed from one generation to the next. Nor do they contain DNA.
If you have anything to add re: digital information of DNA (and only DNA), feel free to comment.
And will y'all please read the .pdf before going off half-cocked?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 6:07 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 6:30 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 28 of 44 (448941)
01-15-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 6:25 PM


Re: Digital or what?
Ok, I know I'm not suppose to reply, but it itches too much. This is my last post on this, I swear.
quote:
And, for the record, prions are not passed from one generation to the next. Nor do they contain DNA.
That's the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:25 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 6:37 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 29 of 44 (448947)
01-15-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 6:30 PM


Re: Digital or what?
From your previous post:
I just pointed out to Hoot Mon that DNA isn't the only way "digital" information could be passed on from one generation to the next.
PRIONS ARE NOT PASSED FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by teen4christ, posted 01-15-2008 6:30 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 30 of 44 (448967)
01-15-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by molbiogirl
01-15-2008 4:30 PM


Re: Digital or what?
molbiogirl writes:
If you'd like to debate the digital nature of DNA, fine.
If you'd like to debate the nature of life, please take it to the appropriate thread: Message 1 (Thread Is there a border dividing life from non-life? in Forum Origin of Life).
Molbio, go back and read your own OP. You opened up a discussion of EDGE's pub: "Life: What a Concept!" And when I began discussing it contents you bitched at me about going off topic. You seem like you'd rather bitch at people than discuss a topic that you yourself brought up. Besides, this the Coffee House thread. If I want to express my opinion that life is digital first and chemical second on this threat I should be allowed to without having to suffer your literary yeast infection.
So get off your high horse.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 4:30 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 01-15-2008 9:53 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
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