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Author Topic:   A discussion of Gun Control for schrafinator
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 331 of 409 (130621)
08-05-2004 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by jar
08-05-2004 9:24 AM


Re: How about the question
If that gun seller is doing so responsibly, they should need to keep records.
The records would show when they have sold a gun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 9:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 11:44 AM nator has replied

xavier999
Inactive Member


Message 332 of 409 (130626)
08-05-2004 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by contracycle
08-05-2004 9:28 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
That's a totally emotional arguement. If you do not want to have a gun I totally support you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 9:28 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 9:54 AM xavier999 has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 333 of 409 (130631)
08-05-2004 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by xavier999
08-05-2004 9:38 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
Tsk. so I just say back "no, its your argument thats emotional".
Shall we just skip the t'is y'isn't and move on?
Not only do I not want to have a gun, I also do not want to be surrounded by people with power to blow me away at any moment should the whim take them. They pose a threat to my life and freedom, and infringe that freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by xavier999, posted 08-05-2004 9:38 AM xavier999 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by xavier999, posted 08-05-2004 11:13 AM contracycle has replied

xavier999
Inactive Member


Message 334 of 409 (130645)
08-05-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by contracycle
08-05-2004 9:54 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tsk. so I just say back "no, its your argument thats emotional".
Shall we just skip the t'is y'isn't and move on?
Not only do I not want to have a gun, I also do not want to be surrounded by people with power to blow me away at any moment should the whim take them. They pose a threat to my life and freedom, and infringe that freedom.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, no, I have a piece of paper in the National Archives that proves I can own a gun. You only have feelings of being frightened and nothing more. Blow you away at any moment should the whim take them? It appears you think you are more civilized than those around you. I guess they are all just savages who cannot think and if you gave them a gun they would use it every time they get angry? I can't see ANY other reason you would make a statement like that. If you would not "blow someone away" on a whim why do you assume everyone else might? Of course, if you would please let me know.
--------------------------------------------
They pose a threat to my life and freedom
--------------------------------------------
But taking them away poses a greater threat to my life and is trampling on my freedom.
We definitely see things in a different light. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like you feel comfortable letting others protect you and your family. That is your choice and I support you. But when it comes to protecting my friends and family I REFUSE to rely solely on others to do that for me. Police are great protection, but they can not be everywhere at once. I am not going to put the well being of those dearest to me up to the CHANCE that the cops will be able to get there in time to stop any harm or death. Maybe they would and maybe they would not. I am not willing to risk that. Even beyond that I cannot always be there to protect them either. Sometimes they are going to be on their own. If someone were to attack one of the female members of my family, for example, there are some things short of having a gun they could do to protect them self, but if the guy is large enough he very well may prevail in the end regardless of all the Judo chops, etc. Thus comes in the equalizer. Nay, the superior edge. With a .357 pointed at his chest said criminal would almost certainly flee. So what if the criminal had a gun too? At least they would be on equal ground, still better than before. Either way the chances that my mom/wife/sister would not be violated greatly increase. Is it guaranteed? Nothing, not even having a police officer there can guarantee it, but that never was the argument. When it comes to self-defense and the defense of those around me I want the odds stacked in my favor. So the whole point of this isn't to offer "proof" of why we need guns, but to let you know a little of where I'm coming from.
OK, let's set all that I just said aside for a moment because it was all emotional anyway. The fact is that the Constitution still shows that the government should not infringe upon my right to own a firearm. Beyond personal safety this also keeps the government itself in check. I have no fear of having to remove the U.S. government any time in my lifetime, but do not think that just because we are a country that was founded by people who threw off the fetters of an oppressive government that our own government may not one day come to be that which our forefathers abhorred. The Constitution means a LOT to me. It really disgusts me to see an American burn a U.S. flag. I would probably enjoy seeing them bullwhipped over it. But you know what? I also know they have a Constitutional right to free speech that protects their right to protest in such a manner. So even though I think it's awful and makes me "feel" angry, I would NEVER support a law that would punish someone for doing it. Why? Because infringing upon even ONE of the rights that lay the very foundation of our society is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. Instead of trying to rob other Americans of our freedom why not focus on the REAL problem - reducing the number of people who would commit a criminal act or who do not understand what being a responsible adult is. There are two ways to do this. Make tons of laws and scare everyone into submission or TEACH THEM ETHICS AND MORALS that would keep them from being criminals in the first place. If you put a gun in the hands of a person with a solid sense of ethics, not only will they not use that weapon for criminal intent, they will realize the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with their right to have that firearm and will treat it with the respect it deserves. This will include not blowing you away on a whim. It’s much more effective to attack the root of a problem than the branches.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 9:54 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 11:41 AM xavier999 has replied

xavier999
Inactive Member


Message 335 of 409 (130648)
08-05-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by contracycle
08-05-2004 9:28 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Having a bunch of people running around with fireamrs infringes my rights, IMO, both of freedom of movement and the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I hate it when my freedom of movement gets infringed. But I solve this by changing into loser clothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 9:28 AM contracycle has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 336 of 409 (130654)
08-05-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by xavier999
08-05-2004 11:13 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
quote:
Actually, no, I have a piece of paper in the National Archives that proves I can own a gun.
YOUR national archives, not mine. I have a piece of paper in MY national archives that says I can be protected from people with guns.
quote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like you feel comfortable letting others protect you and your family.
That question is wholly irrelevant. Your posession of a gun poses a risk to you and your family. I will not own a firearm BECUASE I wish to protect myself and my family.
quote:
Either way the chances that my mom/wife/sister would not be violated greatly increase.
This is an excellent example of the argument to paranoia. Most women are more likely to be raped by someone known to them than by a stranger; thus this is unlikely to prove a great safety measure. Its much more likely that such a family weapon will be used by a member of your family to kill one of the women in your family.
quote:
It really disgusts me to see an American burn a U.S. flag.
Well that just rendered a lot of your argument less important to me. If you are going to apply "my country right or wrong" logic, then the issue of weapon safety is less important tyo you then your perception of the ideological nature of your state.
As Albert Einstein remarked, the patriot does not need a brain, only a spine.
quote:
reducing the number of people who would commit a criminal act or who do not understand what being a responsible adult is.
Then why support a universal right of gun owenrship even by irresponsible adults?
quote:
If you put a gun in the hands of a person with a solid sense of ethics, not only will they not use that weapon for criminal intent, they will realize the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with their right to have that firearm and will treat it with the respect it deserves.
You are arguing your conclusion. There is no reason to believe that at all apart from ideological claims. As with Jar, your "responsible gun owner" is a moving target, and Ideal represnetation of Perfection that does not exist in the real world. We have to deal with REAL guns owend by REAL people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by xavier999, posted 08-05-2004 11:13 AM xavier999 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by xavier999, posted 08-05-2004 12:55 PM contracycle has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 337 of 409 (130655)
08-05-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by contracycle
08-05-2004 9:33 AM


Well, it appears that you really cannot read.
.. while having argued vehemently earlier that truly responsible gun owners do not need to lock their guns up becuase they are so responsible.
If you could read you would see that I said it was a sad comment that we have reached a society where it was necessary to lock the guns up.
No, if we take your guns we will REDUCE the danger both to you and those around you.
That may well be your opinion.
How, pray tell, will that have made anything safer?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 9:33 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 12:07 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 338 of 409 (130657)
08-05-2004 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by nator
08-05-2004 9:34 AM


Re: How about the question
Not quite enough. Responsible gun sellers already try to make sure they are following all the laws. So nothing wouold really change.
The problem is the irresponsible ones.
So once again, how about explaining how your private sales system would work?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 9:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 5:51 PM jar has replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 339 of 409 (130670)
08-05-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by jar
08-05-2004 11:41 AM


quote:
If you could read you would see that I said it was a sad comment that we have reached a society where it was necessary to lock the guns up.
Indeed... becuase in your day, they used to leave their guns lying by the door, they being such responsible owners. That was what you said, and I pointed out that in an environment that experienced gguns as weapons rather than toys, than would be seen as grossly irresponsible.
quote:
How, pray tell, will that have made anything safer?
By reducing the probability that he and his family will die from a gun-related accident to nearely nil. By reducing the capacity for domestic violence to result in a fatality. Even by making attempted suicides more probably survivable; people have second thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 12:20 PM contracycle has not replied
 Message 342 by Silent H, posted 08-05-2004 1:09 PM contracycle has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 340 of 409 (130681)
08-05-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by contracycle
08-05-2004 12:07 PM


By reducing the probability that he and his family will die from a gun-related accident to nearely nil.
But that probability is already nil. As I have said before, in 50+ years of handling guns, only one has ever attacked me. And that attack was by an M-1 and upon my thumb.
By reducing the capacity for domestic violence to result in a fatality.
Nonsense. Trust me, it is possible for domestic violence to end up as a fatality using methods other than guns.
Even by making attempted suicides more probably survivable; people have second thoughts.
Irrelevant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 12:07 PM contracycle has not replied

xavier999
Inactive Member


Message 341 of 409 (130693)
08-05-2004 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by contracycle
08-05-2004 11:41 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOUR national archives, not mine. I have a piece of paper in MY national archives that says I can be protected from people with guns.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Riiiiight. If you're going to deny the existance of the Constitution I don't think we'll get very far.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an excellent example of the argument to paranoia. Most women are more likely to be raped by someone known to them than by a stranger; thus this is unlikely to prove a great safety measure. Its much more likely that such a family weapon will be used by a member of your family to kill one of the women in your family.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paranoid? You're the one who thinks "everyone around you could shoot you on a whim." And you don't know my family well enough to make that last assertion. Nice scare tactic though.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That question is wholly irrelevant. Your posession of a gun poses a risk to you and your family. I will not own a firearm BECUASE I wish to protect myself and my family.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of a means of protecting your family poses a risk. I know you think the cops will always be there, but since you like to point out how the REAL world is let's just face the fact that in the REAL world the cops more often arrive at a crime scene that at an actual crime in progress. But if you do not feel you could safely own a firearm then, again, I agree you should not have one.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that just rendered a lot of your argument less important to me. If you are going to apply "my country right or wrong" logic, then the issue of weapon safety is less important tyo you then your perception of the ideological nature of your state.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It ISN'T wrong. That was my whole point. It disgusts me but it is NOT wrong. It is a right and I recognize it as such instead of letting my emotions dictate what I believe should be policy.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As Albert Einstein remarked, the patriot does not need a brain, only a spine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benjamin Franklin remarked that they that can give up essential liberty to obtain safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. But neither quote really proves anything does it?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are arguing your conclusion. There is no reason to believe that at all apart from ideological claims. As with Jar, your "responsible gun owner" is a moving target, and Ideal represnetation of Perfection that does not exist in the real world.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I KNOW you can't back that up. You're making huge assumptions. Do you even personally know anyone who owns a gun? If so, exactly in what ways are they not responsible as gun owners? If they are doing something you do not think is responsible then you should go and talk with them. I know plenty of "responsible gun owners" that ACTUALLY exist. Not to mention I am one myself.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have to deal with REAL guns owend by REAL people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if it takes away our REAL rights? The ENDS do not justify the MEANS. And truthfully, the ends of taking all the guns away would not be what you think. Because our country would still have REAL people with the intent to commit criminal acts since they never learned REAL morals or ethics because instead of focusing on social programs to help keep kids away from all those REAL problems that they face when growning up we were too worried about taking away the guns from law abiding citizens. And I say again, a person with morals and a sense of responsibility will not commit a crime, gun or no gun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 11:41 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by mark24, posted 08-05-2004 8:59 PM xavier999 has replied
 Message 350 by contracycle, posted 08-06-2004 6:28 AM xavier999 has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 342 of 409 (130695)
08-05-2004 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by contracycle
08-05-2004 12:07 PM


What the????
In one thread you are arguing with me that people should be helping in open revolution struggles and allowed to arm for them... including against the US.
And I find you in this thread arguing for tighter gun laws and saying how you'd NEVER have one in your house!
Oh yeah, guns might go off and kill someone in your family, right? But for Palestinians its teeeeeeerific! Oh yeah, those homemade bombs don't ever detonate accidentally killing a bunch of family members.
You are indeed contrary-cycle.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 12:07 PM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by contracycle, posted 08-06-2004 6:20 AM Silent H has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 343 of 409 (130783)
08-05-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jar
08-05-2004 11:44 AM


Re: How about the question
quote:
Responsible gun sellers already try to make sure they are following all the laws.
What laws do private sellers have to follow?
Do they have to take reasonable measures to find out if the person they are selling their gun is a criminal, has any warrents out for their arrest, has any restraining orders against them, etc.?
Besides, I don't want people to just "try" to follow the law.
I want them to be held accountable if they choose to not follow the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 11:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 6:33 PM nator has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 344 of 409 (130799)
08-05-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by nator
08-05-2004 5:51 PM


Re: How about the question
Then let's step back.
How will you know when a private sale is made?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 5:51 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 8:35 PM jar has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 345 of 409 (130859)
08-05-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by xavier999
08-05-2004 12:55 PM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
Xavier,
Riiiiight. If you're going to deny the existance of the Constitution I don't think we'll get very far.
I think the point being that the US constitution pertains to the US, not contracycles country of birth. Fortunately both he/she & I are protected from your constitution in this regard.
My chances of being a victim of gun crime are fractional compared to you folks. Posessing a gun just doesn't seem to act as a deterrent in the good ol' USA. No matter what the hype.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by xavier999, posted 08-05-2004 12:55 PM xavier999 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by NosyNed, posted 08-05-2004 9:04 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 347 by xavier999, posted 08-06-2004 12:10 AM mark24 has replied

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