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Author
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Topic: Well, I tried to watch LOTR.
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4078 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: 02-12-2003
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Re: Thats it!
yeah, studying the bible is having a similar effect on me as well. i do think there's some truth to it still, but i can't seem to justify about 95% of christianity. Maybe about 95% of Christianity is unjustifiable. I'm sure I'm paraphrasing terribly, but I'm also sure I'm getting the message right when I say even Mahatma Ghandi said, "I'd be a Christian, if it weren't for Christians."
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 10:38 AM | | truthlover has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Thats it!
I've always said when speaking of Christianity, "Thank GOD Christ was a Jew." 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by truthlover, posted 12-20-2004 9:47 AM | | truthlover has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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why is job satisfied with god's speech, even though it contains no reason for why the good suffer, and no mercy for job? i think the answer is simply that god showed up. I see that truthlover agrees with this assessment. I am tempted to agree, though it doesn't help me appreciate it any more.
well, job and his friends go back and forth a bit. I do not consider what you described as an intellectual discourse on a subject.
is it really now?... 4. follow the 8 fold path... the buddhist answer really boils down to "be buddhist." Okay, I find this a little bit disengenuous. That 8 fold path consists of actions one can take in life, specific actions. To call it "be a buddhist" is really inaccurate. And to compare them with actions prescribed by other religions (such as "get rid of sin through confession or prayer") is a serious equivocation. Indeed buddhists do not demand that you "be a buddhist". You can be a Xian or a Hindu or an atheist and still avail yourself of those teachings.
hahaha. ever seen "a clockwork orange?" (or read the book?) Heheheh, yeah.
as a whole, no. most of it isn't even meant to be literature. Wait a sec that was my point!
but you can't tell me that you don't find some of the stories moving? Oh just because the reason to make bible stories into movies is financial, does not mean I think they are all bad. A lot of talent has gone into them and I like many. As cheesy as some may think they are, I really like the Heston biblical epics. I also plan on watching Passion of the Christ at some point as from what I have seen it looks very well directed.
i'm pretty positive now that exodus never happened I was under the impression there is evidence that the exodus occurred (even if not exactly as described). This is not to say I am doubting you, I am not very well read on the subject. I'm just sort of suprised as I thought there was evidence.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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if I had to, my pick would not be "have faith no matter what." It would be "God, and even just a view of God, is worth it." It looks like arach agrees with this. I can see that and so will change my assessment, to some degree. While it may be the message that Job would impart, the point however is he is capable of say that as he's the only guy who saw God in that section (supposedly). And indeed he would be the only one between he and I that would have seen him. Thus the message is "have faith no matter what because just a view of God is worth all the trouble, trust me."
I tell that story, because it says to me that Job's not fantasy, but occurs in modern day as well. I view this differently but recognize it is a difference in opinion. As it is, I respect you on other issues so I'd rather just respect your opinion, than try to advance my own opinion at this point.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by truthlover, posted 12-20-2004 9:44 AM | | truthlover has replied |
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4078 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: 02-12-2003
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Message 95 of 151 (170363)
12-21-2004 9:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:53 PM
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While it may be the message that Job would impart, the point however is he is capable of say that as he's the only guy who saw God in that section (supposedly). And indeed he would be the only one between he and I that would have seen him. Thus the message is "have faith no matter what because just a view of God is worth all the trouble, trust me." I'd like to answer this, but first I have to make sure I really understand what it's saying, because I'm not confident of that. Are you saying by "indeed he would be the only one between he and I that would have seen him," that no one has seen God since Job's time? I think it's clear you're saying that, but do you mean in your opinion, Job's opinion, or everyone's opinion? My thought would be that part and parcel of "a view of God is worth it" would be "a view of God is possible" rather than available to Job only. Wait, I get it. You mean see as in visibly lay eyes on. Gosh, I never even considered that literal a meaning. I'm thinking see as in have some sort of experience with God that would make the suffering worth it, and the stories of such experiences are innumerable. Hmm, maybe I should adjust my interpretation of Job's message one more time to "Hang on when it looks bad; God hasn't abandoned you even when it looks like he has." The difference between that and "have faith no matter what" is the assumption that you and I are putting on that message. I'm assuming God really will appear at some point, and it will be worth it, and you're (it appears to me) assuming it's unlikely there will be any visible, noticeable reward for that faith. Just thoughts.
As it is, I respect you on other issues so I'd rather just respect your opinion, than try to advance my own opinion at this point. Gosh, thanks, I'm honored. Can't imagine I deserve a statement like that, but thank you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:53 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by Silent H, posted 12-21-2004 6:39 PM | | truthlover has not replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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I meant that I am having to take the word of someone else about the experience of God making up for all the misery. I was assuming it was a literal "seeing", especially with the case of Job, but you are right that it could include just an experience.
I'm thinking see as in have some sort of experience with God that would make the suffering worth it, and the stories of such experiences are innumerable. While this is true, this is remains second hand until I have such an experience. It is also quite true that people tell me of these same kinds of experiences from all matter of sources. Indeed it doesn't even have to be religious... Here's a good example, you mentioned prisoners having thanked God for being saved. I remember a very interesting story of a guy who felt that Star Trek had saved his sanity during captivity in Vietnam, including through torture. So it was Captain Kirk instead of Jesus Christ. And there was another from the first gulf war, where a soldier credited the image of his daughter (who kept appearing and urging him on) with saving him and helping him escape capture. Love of personal family instead of Christ. So who am I supposed to believe? Or do I credit so many similar experiences to the ability of the human mind to give itself rewards in order to deal with tragic circumstances (particularly ones you can't escape from)? Job, and others that have had experiences like Job, can make the claim. But I am only hearing one story, out of many.
"Hang on when it looks bad; God hasn't abandoned you even when it looks like he has." I think you were right the first time. This sounds a little too vague. It is also reminiscent of the footprints in the sand poem.
Can't imagine I deserve a statement like that, but thank you. You do, you really do. You are welcome though.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by truthlover, posted 12-21-2004 9:30 AM | | truthlover has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 97 of 151 (171407)
12-25-2004 12:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:36 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 98 of 151 (171408)
12-25-2004 12:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:36 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 99 of 151 (171410)
12-25-2004 12:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 100 of 151 (171411)
12-25-2004 1:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 101 of 151 (171412)
12-25-2004 1:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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...
[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 102 of 151 (171414)
12-25-2004 1:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 103 of 151 (171415)
12-25-2004 1:25 AM
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[duplicate post] This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 01:34 AM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 104 of 151 (171416)
12-25-2004 1:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
12-20-2004 12:32 PM
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I see that truthlover agrees with this assessment. I am tempted to agree, though it doesn't help me appreciate it any more. no more than, say, "waiting for godot" in which he does not show up?
I do not consider what you described as an intellectual discourse on a subject. well, then why bother debating here? the arguments are about the same calibre.
Okay, I find this a little bit disengenuous. That 8 fold path consists of actions one can take in life, specific actions. To call it "be a buddhist" is really inaccurate. And to compare them with actions prescribed by other religions (such as "get rid of sin through confession or prayer") is a serious equivocation. Indeed buddhists do not demand that you "be a buddhist". You can be a Xian or a Hindu or an atheist and still avail yourself of those teachings. and on the same token, you can follow the specific teachings of christ, and not be a christian. but to me, if you follow the teachings of buddha, you're a buddhist. and if you follow the teachings of the christ, you're a christian. etc.
Oh just because the reason to make bible stories into movies is financial, does not mean I think they are all bad. A lot of talent has gone into them and I like many. As cheesy as some may think they are, I really like the Heston biblical epics. I also plan on watching Passion of the Christ at some point as from what I have seen it looks very well directed. i actually didn't like that one.
I was under the impression there is evidence that the exodus occurred (even if not exactly as described). This is not to say I am doubting you, I am not very well read on the subject. I'm just sort of suprised as I thought there was evidence. no real substantial proof that the hebrews were even in egypt, to my knowledge. unless they were the hyksos, but that would sort of change the story a little.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Silent H, posted 12-20-2004 12:32 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 105 by Silent H, posted 12-26-2004 4:50 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5838 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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alright alright I believe you already!
Wow did you have some reply problems.
well, then why bother debating here? the arguments are about the same calibre. If it were mainly of the same calibre, I would not have joined debates here. Yes it can be that bad, but it isn't usually.
and on the same token, you can follow the specific teachings of christ, and not be a christian. but to me, if you follow the teachings of buddha, you're a buddhist. and if you follow the teachings of the christ, you're a christian. etc. Look, this is really disengenuous and the fact that you are repeating the point does not help. It makes me suspect that you are unaware of the differences between how the two are practiced, and the theories behind them. Although there are some metaphysical beliefs within Buddhism which can be said to be theistic (even if not wholly around a divine presence), they are unnecessary for achieving the end of reducing suffering and even reaching the state of nirvana. Xianity on the other hand has its metaphysical and practical tenets wrapped together. The cause of suffering in this world is SIN, and it stems from ORIGINAL SIN. You are guilty from birth, stretching alllllllll the way back. The main point of life is to secure a good place in the afterlife by freeing onesself of sin by obeying God's commands. And more specifically worshipping his son who sacrificed himself on a cross to remove your sins. Although it may tolerate the existence of other religions it cannot truly accept other religions. It is the one true faith and must be. That is right in the top ten list of Xianity. It is true that there are bits of wisdom here and there in the Bible which may be used, but they are no different than Greek philosophy, and as is pointed out in the Bible will not get one into heaven. I think saying Buddhism boils down to telling people to be a Buddhist, like all other religions, is simply not being accurate.
no real substantial proof that the hebrews were even in egypt, to my knowledge. unless they were the hyksos, but that would sort of change the story a little. What is the current thinking on Hebrews then? Is it believed that they were indigenous to the area and made up the story of flight from egypt? Or did they flee from somewhere else? If they fled from elsewhere, why did they tie themselves into egypt rather than where they actually came from?
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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