Abortion - Moments of (Mis)Conception

Really crashfrog Why would those who know me (you don't) keep secrets from me. They know I am only here to help. I don't judge, I don't condemn, I just try to help them work through any problems they are having.You are assuming a lot, PEOPLE LIKE ME. Who you confusing me with? What has that got to do with the following that I was trying to answer? Please don't put words in my mouth I mess up enough all by myself. crash as I have said I am a realist and know that people are going to have abortions, but because they do I do not have to condone it.

While I appreciate the sentiment, don't bother. I do not feel any pain from my decision. Even the pain of others' condemnation is no more.My issues are solely anger at people who think they are qualified to make a life decision for others.

There has to be a beginning.

as far as i know, god breathed life into adam after he was a fully formed adult male. so, he was never conceived and yet he was human. the scripture supports that it is the breath or soul of god that ensouls man. traditionally, this was believed to happen at the quickening which is what? like 4 months or something? but in the bible, a man who injures a woman and causes her to miscarry is not charged with murder, but required to pay a price of lost property. these are all real biblical evidences that ensoulment does not happen at birth and that abortion is potential unobstructed by scripture. the pro-life argument says "before you were conceived, i knew you." but that means little. souls are supposed to be eternal. if this is the case, then the soul is implanted, i'd imagine after a body has become viable. i'd imagine that really being ensouled would occur upon taking breath. if the soul were to spontaneously generate upon the fusing of the sperm and ovum, then it wouldn't be eternal not emanate from the breath of god, would it?give me real, biblical evidence for your position. this thread is not about what you believe, or how you combat abortion, or how you treat women who have had them, but why your position on abortion is supportable.

As I have said before, the beginning of life was in Genesis 1. Since then, there has been a continuum of life. The sperm and egg cells are alive, the failed implants are/were alive....But when does an individual human life begin?"There has to be a beginning" says absolutely nothing about when the beginning has to be. It is becoming fairly clear that there is no basis - either biologically or Biblically for your arbitrary opinion.

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It is wonderful that you have overcome the pain from ab, but you are still suffering as you have the anger, and resentment.You are totally within your rights to be mad, frustrated and even bewildered at the attitude and actions of others from what I have read in your posts. But because they are ignorant should not keep you from going on with your life and enjoying it to the fullest, which the anger will keep you from doing.

Why do I have to have a reason or basis, it is my opinion and no one elses.Edited by ICANT, : left out a couple of words

Repeating your unfounded opinions over and over and over is boring.You might as well be saying, "I like ice cream! I like ice cream!"This is a discussion forum, not your personal blog.
A discussion requires some contribution beyond mere opinions.

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If it is justified does that make it right?

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You said that all abortion is murder, and you also said that when egg and sperm join, a full-fledged human being exists.I am simply throwing specific cases at you to see how you fit them into your position that every single case of abortion is murder.

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As far as I am concerned they go to be with God.

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Would you advocate for the collection of women's menstrual fluid if there is any chance that those full-fledged human beings could be saved and implanted into another uterus? I am sure that the technology could be developed to do so.If not, why not?At the very least, shouldn't they be searched for and given proper burials, since they are full-fledged human beings?If not, why not?Now, you pretty much avoided dealing with these specific cases.How do the following scenarios fit into your "abortion is always murder" stance?Please be specific.

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By the way I don't have the job of denying or approving abortions. They are a fact of life. I think our court system took care of that.

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But if abortions really are murder, as you say they are, then shouldn't they be prosecuted as such?

Everybody judges, and everybody knows that everybody judges. And you aren't always there to help; if you were you wouldn't be pushing abstinence like it was an effective policy.And not everybody has the courage to let others in, even people who are just there to help. If you think you're the very soul of charity, and that nobody would ever be afraid or nervous about bringing things up with you, then you need to get help for your arrogance problem. I imagine it's a big stumbling block for those around you. I heard you were a pastor. Is that not correct? We were talking about expanding access to conception. You replied that you promote "1 man 1 woman." (Probably in that order, too.)I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic of contraception. You're the one that was trying to make the connection; what were you trying to say? Apparently you do condone it, because you don't do what it takes to prevent abortions. How am I supposed to reconcile this disparity?

I think you and the rest misunderstand my position on abortion.
I don't know how to state it without getting a time out.The courts have said ab is legal.
I believe it is murder. Does that make it so.
I believe every aborted fetus whether aborted medically or naturally is a living soul, that goes to be with God.It is not my job to determine if an abortion is warranted or not I am not a doctor, a judge or deity. I don't think that would be feasible because of time involved. burials are only necessary to keep decaying bodies from lying around.If you haven't gotten it from my posts I am not anti abortion. I just believe to take a human life if murder. Message 15 As I look at those numbers, abortion is doing more for God than I could ever hope to accomplish in many lifetimes.Why should I be upset. I just have to deal with the problems that have been created.

Your position is inconsistent, ICANT.If you truly believe that abortion is murder, every single time, but at the same time you say you are not anti-abortion, then doesn't that mean that you are sort of "pro-murder"? Or maybe merely neutral about murder?

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It is not my job to determine if an abortion is warranted or not I am not a doctor, a judge or deity.

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Or a pregnant woman.See, don't you think that the woman who's body is housing the pregnancy is the person who should have the final say about if an abortion is warranted or not?It is very telling that you left out of your list of people who can determine if an abortion is warranted the person who's life will be impacted the most by carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth.It is a serious, horrible thing to accuse a person of murder, ICANT.That is exactly what you are doing when you say that abortion is always murder. You are accusing millions of women and girls of committing premeditated murder.But anyway, wait, now I am confused.According to you, abortion is NEVER warranted. It is ALWAYS murder, regardless of what a judge or a doctor says (it is irrelevant what the woman says, apparently)Why are you all of a sudden saying that it's not your place to judge?Saying it is ALWAYS murder isjudging! It is the essence of judging, in fact.If a woman gets an abortion, you judge her to be a murderer. End of story.right?And you are still avoiding dealing with my specific cases and how they fit into your position of "abortion is always murder.Can you please explain why you believe that aborting a fetus without a brain which will die when it is born is murder.Can you please explain how removing an ectopic pregnancy from the fallopian tube of a woman is murder?

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I don't think that would be feasible because of time involved.

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Let's say that it was shown to be feasable and didn't take much time.Would you advocate for this to happen? Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Being nonjudgmental is one of the hardest things to do but if I do judge I try to make sure the person I am dealing with never knows it. I just have to try to keep my personal convictions personal. Are you telling me that abstinence will not work it people practice it? I am a pastor. Does that make me something other than a human. There are probably many millions of people that would not confide in me. But I truly believe that there is not a single person in my congregation that would not confide in me as I have never broken their trust, and I have heard it all I think, probably not as I am learning a lot here.Hopefully it will make me a better listener and a better help to those suffering from abortion issues. A little honesty now crash quit putting words in my mouth. Message 126
I think you are right that I do condone it as I believe all aborted fetus go to heaven.I also believe in obeying the law.But that still does not make it right.

So what do you think about this from the OP? If there is indeed no one 'moment' of conception, just when does a human become 'special'? I didn't gather much from that. That post looks more like a pro-abortion argument than an anti-abortion one. If all the souls that are aborted, whether naturally or clinically, end up living happily ever after in heaven with God, why do you oppose abortion? Indeed.

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Are you telling me that abstinence will not work it people practice it?

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LOL!The point is, people don't practice abstinence.They never have, ICANT.Seriously, how much reading have you done on effective social policies that reduce unintended pregnancy?"Abstinence-only" sex education actually results in MORE irresponsible sexual behaviors in teens and young adults. Kids who go through those programs take a year or two longer to have premarital sex, and when they do, they are less likely to use contraception, and are therefore MORE likely to get pregnant/get someone pregnant unintentionally.So, are you actually interested in reducing the need for abortion in ways that are shown to work, or are you more interested in perpetuating ineffective methods that result in MORE abortion?