Demonstration in Iraq vs. Liberation of Iraq...

You wouldn't want to send them to Den Haag, as they'd be exonerated. The dutch gov't and its enforcement mechanisms are US dupes at this point in time.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You have your choice to believe Znets story over the one I copy/pasted.It looks like your version of the story has made it to:The World Socialist Website (Its a copy and paste job) Sourceballacio.org (another copy/paste) sourceBlackanthem.com has reported my version of the story voanews.com also supports my version
sourceAs far as the Associated Press goes, read the article, then read the Znet article. They are different. The Znet story has some VERY detailed information about the this incident which is why I hold it suspect to begin with. The reporter even overheard what the US Soldier was saying. Unlikely.I lived and work in Baghdad (inside the Green Zone) for 8 months. I've been through a checkpoint or two. The Marines/Soldiers at the checkpoints don't care about Al Sadr's picture being in a window. I never say a US soldier walk up to someone's vehicle and pull them out. That isn't thier job. What they DO care about are vehicles that cut out into the other lane toward oncoming traffic and rush up to the checkpoint. That's not safe. Could be a VBIED. I have seen someone who thought they were important try to get around the line of cars waiting to go through the checkpoint. This sounds like the case. I did google it. I didn't get much. Don't assume. Poor proof. But your attitude can also prove my point. That you read something on Znet and take it as gospel. I don't disregard anything. Your story says a US Soldier picked this vehicle out of many just because he had a picture on his window and humilited him without cause. My story says the guy was impatient, got into a pissing contest with an interpreter and THEN US soldiers interevened.Huge difference. And its not an unattributable claim. You simply chose to ignore it.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

No webpage found at provided URL: As this is being reported by a reputable news source (Al Jazeera, which is somewhat superior to Fox in my experience) it will also keep Tal happy. ROFL!

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Hopefully I've clarified that in the above post(s). Exactly what eyewitness? FYI, reporters don't hang around IZ checkpoints.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Okay, I don't think you are going to be convinced so I'm pulling out of this debate.Before leaving, I would like to make one final point. Do the US soldiers do their job well? Your faith in the US military is endearing but I don't share it. There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that US soldiers simply aren't very good at their jobs.The FBI have formally documented the criminality of the American military. In a memo released under the freedom of information act, they describe the US military's interrogation techniques as "torture" and complain that torture is carried out by military personnel dressed up (illegally) as FBI agents. The memo is available hereA report from a group of Iraqi physicians based in the General Hospital at Fallujah is described hereThe official red cross report on human rights violations committed by US soldiers against Iraqi detainees is available hereA Christian humanitarian organization carried out interviews with Iraqi civilians who complained of abuse and posted the interview transcripts hereGovernment documents condoning torture are provided hereThe Lancet describes "a continued and preventable loss of innocent life" hereLegal basis of ACLU's lawsuit against civilian and military US personnel can be found hereLawsuit against Rumsfeld is described hereLawsuit against Karpinski is described hereLawsuit against Sanchez is described hereLawsuit against Pappas is described hereSo the US army's ineptitude is catalogued by Iraqi doctors, Christian aid groups, the Red Cross, The Lancet, the ACLU and indeed by the FBI. Several members of the ACLU's prosecuting team are retired senior members of the US military.You may have some difficulty in claiming that these reports, from respectable groups or reputable organizations, are ALL subject to the same myopic media bias.It is clear that US soldiers are both inept and criminal, and it has been documented by the FBI that some of them are torturers.Enjoy!This message has been edited by mick, 05-02-2005 01:12 PMThis message has been edited by mick, 05-02-2005 01:34 PM

There's nothing to be convinced about. You found a bogus story (The story was real, but the details from your source are false) and posted it as fact.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

quote:

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I am still interested in hearing Tal tell how, in view of conficting reports of the facts, how one determines which one is reliable and which one is not.

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Hopefully I've clarified that in the above post(s).

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No, the posts above didn't seem to answer my question at all. But I may be exceptionally dense.

Tal, I'm sorry but i really do want to leave this thread alone now. I don't think we're getting anywhere, and its just a waste of time for both of us.The fact is, US soldiers have been shown to be liars, criminals and torturers. It's sad but it is a fact. It has been well documented. What the US military says about the conflict in Iraq has no consequence on the reality.Given our differing views about the reliability of different sources, our conversation can simply not proceed.With all respect,mick