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Author Topic:   christian nationalism
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 1 of 110 (311249)
05-11-2006 10:48 PM


New Book Examines Christian Nationalism : NPR
of particular note:
it's dominion we're after
i am ashamed this day to be pca. i can't believe coral ridge is part of this crap. i really can't believe it. the last church i attended was sister with them.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 110 (311257)
05-11-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
05-11-2006 10:48 PM


Yes, I heard that "Fresh Air" broadcast today.
i can't believe coral ridge is part of this crap.
If you ever listened to a D. James Kennedy broadcast, then this would be no surprise at all.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 3 of 110 (311259)
05-11-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
05-11-2006 10:53 PM


i imagine. it was simply more that i'm so close to it. repulsive.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 4 of 110 (311322)
05-12-2006 1:35 AM


Hopefully not too far off Topic
I have not seen or heard the exposition that caused the starting point of this thread, but have some comments based upon the title.
I have done some preliminary research into the state of scholarship regarding the relationship of fundamentalist "christiantiy" to the psychological characteristics of such adherents. The number of scholarly articles connecting fundamentalism to racial prejudice using the usual methods of qualitative analysis employed by social scientists appears to be running between 1/3 to 1/2 of all articles obtained from the EBSCO database Academic Search Premiere using the terms Christian, fundamentalist, and psychology. These articles indicate strong correlations between Christian fundamentalism and racism (.2-.3+).
One of the more recent articles, from the bastion of Baptist scholarship, Baylor University, indicates the correlation is not necessarily due to fundamentalism but rather right-wing authoritarianism. That of course begs the question about the correlation between right-wing authoritarianism and "christian" fundamentalism.
It appears obvious to me, and has been for some time, that fundamentalist "chrisianity" by demanding a Nordic Jesus with blue eyes, an anthropomorphic Santa Claus-like Caucasian God, a nearly all-male pantheon of the saved, with revelation of the one true religion only coming from a few tribes in a specific location to the exclusion all other people and all other cultures, is by definition racist, sexist, and ultra-nationalistic.
However in fairness, considering the history of the world, invoking and manipulating whatever religious yearnings in the populace to further ones need for power is not a uniquely Christian phenomena.
Additionally, what's the deal with the war against science? Did the role of genetic manipulation of agricultural plants in saving at least 2 billion lives not please those that believe in the ultimate message of Jesus or does such adherence require one to feel such people were from an inappropriate tribe?
I wish that more people who refer to themselves as Christian would fight those who worship this ugly cariciture of Christianity foisted upon the gullible by the manipulative.
{abe} clarity
This message has been edited by anglagard, 05-12-2006 01:53 AM
This message has been edited by anglagard, 05-12-2006 01:57 AM

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 5 of 110 (311352)
05-12-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by anglagard
05-12-2006 1:35 AM


Re: Hopefully not too far off Topic
I have not seen or heard the exposition that caused the starting point of this thread, ..
The link that brennakimi included in the OP has a button to allow you to listen to the program on your computer (requires an audio card).
The number of scholarly articles connecting fundamentalism to racial prejudice ...
The predudice du jour is against homosexuals.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 6 of 110 (313977)
05-20-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
05-12-2006 8:06 AM


Finally listened to broadcast
I finally got a chance to listen to the broadcast. It addresses why I consider the Christian Reconstructionist movement, particularly the Dominionism part, an affront to the teachings of Jesus (or any other religious figure of significance) and to anyone who truly supports the Constitution of the United States.
From this broadcast I understand that the idea behind Christian Nationalism is to eliminate the seperation of church and state, make Christianity a privleged and dominant religion, rewrite history according to their ideology, and either control or eliminate public education.
I understand there is a Christian Reconstructionist Movement which seeks to make the Bible the source of all law (like the Taliban did with the Quran), which would result in the execution of all homosexuals, alduterers, and women who have engaged in premarital sex.
I understand that part of this movement is the Dominion Movement, which wants to infiltrate American Society and use it as a tool in a goal of World conquest.
The predudice du jour is against homosexuals.
Yes, according to this broadcast and according to the research I mentioned in my previous post, but did not specifically state or elaborate on. These movements clearly require an enemy, and homosexuals are the current bad guy.
I have been guilty of cratering more than one forum, and I don't want to because I would prefer to act a a good citizen of this community, but still feel compelled to attack what I view as anti-Christain Christians. Why is there such a need for hate and intolerance.
I would like to know where the fundamentalists in this forum really stand on some of the issues raised in this broadcast. Including:
US military conquest of the world
Infiltration of US government for subversive purposes
Elimination of Public Education
Execution of certian groups according to Biblical Law (as they interpret)
Support of Racism
Psycological support of Authoritarianism
Elimination of Freedom of Religion
Institutionalized bias against homosexuality
Control over all scholarship, so that research and conclusions must be approved by religious bodies
I realize these topics may be threads unto themselves. However, I have not heard/read any creationist fundamentalist type support freedom of religion, write against the execution of certian groups, or even against the idea they should take over the US and then the world through violent warfare. This would provide an opportunity.
It would also provide me with some peace of mind if fundamentalists actually spoke out against any of the above in the preceeding list.
I am too passionate about my religion and the enlightenment and its results including science and representative democracy to keep silent sometimes, and that results in being a bad citizen of this forum by taking posts off-topic. Sorry, maybe consideration of the above will help, in this or other threads.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 110 (314137)
05-21-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by anglagard
05-20-2006 6:56 PM


Re: Finally listened to broadcast
and women who have engaged in premarital sex.
i love how it's just women and not men.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 110 (314182)
05-21-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by anglagard
05-20-2006 6:56 PM


The constitution according to Leviticus
I managed to listen to a little of it AG. Notwithstanding the unavoidable on-the-outside-bias of the interviewee I would suggest that if even half of what she was saying was true then the only advice I can offer y'all is:
Abandon Country!!!

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 110 (314254)
05-22-2006 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
05-21-2006 5:17 PM


Re: The constitution according to Leviticus
Abandon Country!!!
Nope, stand and fight. I left the US and, at least in Europe, its heading in the same direction.
Edited by holmes, : cleaved off irrelevant portion

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 10 of 110 (314313)
05-22-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
05-21-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Finally listened to broadcast
and women who have engaged in premarital sex.
i love how it's just women and not men.
On the flip side, Brenna, the Christian Reconstructionists only propose to stone male homosexuals to death (stoning would become the preferred means of execution in the new Christian nation because of its edifying public and participatory nature). Of course, only Christian men (of the right sort) could hold office or sit on choirs...er, juries.
But apparently the Reconstructionists cannot find an explicit passage pertaining to lesbians, so stoning Sappho is out. I'm sure they'll come up with something, though. One would hope that, like the Inquisitors, the new rulers would have the decency to torture suspects into recantation and salvation before they execute them, since their immortal soul is most important.
This reactionary movement also intends to criminalize all forms of contraception. The Christian Reconstructionist interest in this (and other) Catholic stands on social issues partly explains why Protestant denunciations of the Catholic Church are now relatively rare.
Evangelicals also provide considerable political and financial support to Israel because of the necessary role they see Israel playing in the end times: seems odd that they seek to control conditions for the fulfillment of prophecy, as though they could manage whatever events and timing God had in mind.
So the Jew and Catholic bashing that once characterized the evangelicals has largely quieted, but it seems a tactical maneuver rather than a change of heart.
Like all religious fanatics, they are determined to do what God would do if He was in possession of all the facts.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 11 of 110 (314401)
05-22-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Omnivorous
05-22-2006 10:21 AM


Re: Finally listened to broadcast
indeed.
it's terrifying.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 12 of 110 (314688)
05-23-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Omnivorous
05-22-2006 10:21 AM


Re: Finally listened to broadcast
But apparently the Reconstructionists cannot find an explicit passage pertaining to lesbians, so stoning Sappho is out. I'm sure they'll come up with something, though.
I'd bet good money they will find something in the bible that justifies forced (heterosexual ) marriage or - more likely in terms of the sort of scuzzballs we're talking about - something that allows senior males in the community to basically rape lesbians (even if said males are already married).
Purely to show them how God intended sex to be done of course...

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 110 (314749)
05-23-2006 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by anglagard
05-20-2006 6:56 PM


OK I'll bite
I would like to know where the fundamentalists in this forum really stand on some of the issues raised in this broadcast. Including:
US military conquest of the world Ridiculous idea, of course not. Nothing could be further from the spirit of Christianity. Christianity has no use for the world. What would we do with it? The majority of people are not believers and you can't force belief, it has to come from within. We'd like to have freedom of influence in the world, though, both to bring people to Christ where possible, and to be salt and light, which means basically trying to influence unbelievers against anti-God policies that only hasten their demise. I don't understand the Reconstructionists who think we're supposed to take the world for Christ. About all I can say for them is that they aren't suggesting doing it in a violent way as Islam does.
Infiltration of US government for subversive purposes -- Such as ??? INFILTRATION? How does a US citizen "infiltrate" his own government which is supposed to be "government of by and for the people?" The government is "infiltrated" or influenced every day by all kinds of officials and lobbyists and citizens with all kinds of agendas I don't approve of. That's democracy.
Elimination of Public Education I'm for Christians educating their own children, taking them out of the public schools en masse, either for homeschooling or founding more Christian schools, because Public Education is no longer of any value to Christians. Beyond that, no opinion about Public Education. Most people in this country are unaware of the fact that elementary school education in this country originally used the Bible as a text, and the catechisms and confessions of Protestantism, that's how dominantly Christian the nation was. Enough Christian aura remained even after the public school system got going so that Christians accepted it, although one prescient spokesman of the 19th century, A.A. Hodge, had strongly warned that the system was only going to operate as an incubator for secularism and Christians were foolish to accept it.
Execution of certian groups according to Biblical Law (as they interpret) Groups? Biblical law doesn't command execution of groups. Laws against things like homosexual acts, yes, if that's the sort of thing you're thinking of. Such laws -- sodomy laws, blue laws -- were on the books of many American states until recently (which might be some evidence there for the claim that the US was originally a Christian nation) Execution? Not that I know of. Preventing the political support of such things as gay marriage is crucially important however, because that is complicity in their sin, and it puts the entire nation under God's judgment. Just as legalized abortion does. Anything the nation legalizes that is a sin brings judgment against the nation.
Support of Racism Racism is completely at odds with the Bible. All human beings are descended from Adam, all are fallen, all in need of Christ's redemption and regeneration.
Psycological support of Authoritarianism Authoritarianism was conceptualized by the Marxist anti-Western civilization group, the Frankfurt School of Social Research, of which Theodor Adorno was a major member. That organization aimed consciously to undermine western civilization. Its mission seems to have been to demonize valid authority. It was no doubt a Jewish overreaction against Nazism -- baby out with the bathwater in spades -- but its effect overall has been to contribute to the whole political correctness mess that has been the legacy of the sixties. Another member of that group, Herbert Marcuse, exerted his influence against tradition in the sexual sphere with his "Eros and Civilization." Wilhelm Reich was another sexual liberationist member of that group. I have no idea what "authoritarianism" is supposed to mean otherwise, a perversion of authority maybe? But the book called into question authority as such somehow anyway. That authority can be abused is nothing new, if that's what it means. Humanity is fallen, so no surprises there. But authority after all implies ultimately the authority of God. It's hard to imagine a more defining idea of God than authority. So we are very pro authority -- rightly constituted and just authority, and authoritarianism has nothing to do with this.
And what do you mean by "psychological" support? Some kind of mental disorder? Christians generally recognize themselves as sinners formerly in rebellion against the authority of God, now struggling with that natural/fallen disposition against authority to embrace God's perfect will. So whatever you're talking about it's not a natural psychological state.
Elimination of Freedom of Religion Of course not. The very concept came out of Christianity. HOWEVER, I do agree with the Reconstructionists that religions not merely opposed but actually hostile to Christianity would not have been allowed equal status if the 98-99% Christian population at the time of the founding, and the 98 or so% Christian membership of the founding fathers themselves, some 200 or so, had had any clue that the first amendment could have been misconstrued as it has been. Freedom to practice their religion, yes, but no freedom to achieve a position from which to suppress Chrsitianity, or even be treated as equal to Christianity (because that will ALWAYS lead to the suppression of Christianity), which is in fact what is happening.
Institutionalized bias against homosexuality What do you mean by "institutionalized?" Homosexual acts are sin according to God. Homosexual people are sinners in need of kind treatment and salvation like everybody else.
Control over all scholarship, so that research and conclusions must be approved by religious bodies ??? I don't see how this could even be possible given the conflicts between religious bodies. But in principle I don't see the point either.
I also don't see how you got most of those things off that NPR interview.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 110 (314758)
05-23-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by anglagard
05-12-2006 1:35 AM


Re: Hopefully not too far off Topic
One of the more recent articles, from the bastion of Baptist scholarship, Baylor University, indicates the correlation is not necessarily due to fundamentalism but rather right-wing authoritarianism. That of course begs the question about the correlation between right-wing authoritarianism and "christian" fundamentalism.
The concept of authoritarianism is a paranoid demonization of all authority, especially Christian authority, that came out of Jewish overreaction to Nazism, expressed in the studies of the Frankfurt School of Social Research, and highly influential in America in the 60s. It's just a made-up category. If you disliked the labeling of homosexuality as a disease, well this one is exactly the same kind of thing, only from the other side of the political divide.
It appears obvious to me, and has been for some time, that fundamentalist "chrisianity" by demanding a Nordic Jesus with blue eyes, an anthropomorphic Santa Claus-like Caucasian God, a nearly all-male pantheon of the saved, with revelation of the one true religion only coming from a few tribes in a specific location to the exclusion all other people and all other cultures, is by definition racist, sexist, and ultra-nationalistic.
Oh brother. Talk about your conspiracy theories. By the way many racial groups depict Jesus in the form of their own characteristics. I have some paintings of a black Jesus I think are good art. Actually I have some black and white copies of same, would like to have decent color prints of them.
However in fairness, considering the history of the world, invoking and manipulating whatever religious yearnings in the populace to further ones need for power is not a uniquely Christian phenomena.
First you have to have some evidence for ANY of this stuff you are doling out here. This is just one big paranoid fantasy to my ear.
Additionally, what's the deal with the war against science? Did the role of genetic manipulation of agricultural plants in saving at least 2 billion lives not please those that believe in the ultimate message of Jesus or does such adherence require one to feel such people were from an inappropriate tribe?
What are you talking about? There are some VERY PARTICULAR SPECIFIC AREAS that science has gotten involved in that appear to challenge the Bible, and these and ONLY THESE are a problem for Christians.
I wish that more people who refer to themselves as Christian would fight those who worship this ugly cariciture of Christianity foisted upon the gullible by the manipulative.
Maybe we would if we had half a clue what you are talking about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 110 (314760)
05-23-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
05-23-2006 9:05 PM


Re: Hopefully not too far off Topic
What are you talking about? There are some VERY PARTICULAR SPECIFIC AREAS that science has gotten involved in that appear to challenge the Bible, and these and ONLY THESE are a problem for Christians.
Again, not true. Nothing in Science is a problem for Christians, only for some subset cult of Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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