reliability of eye-witness accounts

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Maybe, or it could mean that we are degenerating morally overall so that witness integrity is actually less reliable than it used to be and it's a good thing we have sophisticated forensics. Not something that could be proved but something I suspect may be the case. One of those private musings again.

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I'm sure that idea is just nonsense, however it is interesting how creationists seem to latching onto victorian ideas of degeneration.

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This is where personal integrity plays a big part though. If people's judgments of what they witnessed are as easily swayed as some of these studies show, I think that is about integrity more than anything natural about memory. I think people today have less solid standards of honesty so that emotions and biases and external influences more easily compromise their view of things. Now don't totalize what I'm saying here.

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Again nonsense - how does "integrity" alter The nature of Synaptic Change?

this is from the other thread you didn't reply to.Can you (personally) tell when to trust your eyes and when not to?
Can you cite an example in life of when you didn't trust your own eyes?This message has been edited by chris porcelain, 02-28-2005 17:10 AM

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

I think your asking the wrong questions - it's not so much about trusting your eyes, as it is about trusting your brain to accurately replay what your eyes saw some time ago...As an example, the study I mention above in the thread: I'm sure if people were staring at Mickey Mouse, and you asked them if they were staring at Bugs Bunny, everyone would answer correctly (given they knew who Bugs Bunny was...)However, ask the people after they have left the park, and a third of them will say they had seen Bugs Bunny under certain conditions.

I'm afraid you're missing the point. It doesn't seem like a good way to exist if you can't trust what you see.edit:typoThis message has been edited by chris porcelain, 02-28-2005 18:00 AM

Why is that?It doesn't matter whether or not you trust your memory of what your eyes have seen, the simple fact is that your memory is falliable. Studies have shown that memory is quite manipulatable; a false memory can be implanted in someone just by asking them a leading question.As an exercise to prove this point: accurately describe to me everything that your eyes saw while you were eating lunch three days ago. How about three weeks? years?You may be able to describe something outstanding that happened to you during lunch three days ago, but you've probably already forgotten, half-forgotten, or never stored many of the mundane details. Many eye-witness accounts are based upon what seemed like "mundane details" before a spotlight was shown on them as a key piece of evidence. The man that passed you on the street two months ago - what color sweatshirt was he wearing?I guess "I'm afraid you're missing the point". Just because you want your memory to be accurate doesn't make it so. The inaccuracy of your memory is not based on your personal preference. It's a fact of life.Do you honestly feel that every single memory you have is 100% accurate?

How on earth do degenerating moral standards affect a person’s ability to accurately remember events? ooh, I’m gonna sleep with my neighbours wife ohh dear there goes my memory of last Tuesday! You might have a point with beer and narcotics but as there have been ever present in society that one is a moot point.I believe is fairer to say that we realise that human memory is not infallible and thus have to take that into account rather than to assume witnesses are always Unreliable It’s not that they shouldn’t be trusted, just that they may be in error of what they believe to have witnessed.

YOU are missing the point.The question isn't whether you should trust your eyes or not. The question is whether you should trust your recollection of what your eyes saw or not. Welcome to the real world, where you sometimes have to admit that you were wrong. This is a trait that, I think, you seem to lack.I know for a fact that I have suffered from false memory syndrome before. I also know for a fact that there are many people I know who have suffered from false memory syndrome.Unfortunately, I do know some people that still think their memory is a tape recorder.

Its happened to me I’m sure it’s happened to you, but have you ever glanced at some thing like a shadow on a darkened wall at night and you brain has registered SPIDER only to look back to try and find the spider, only to realise its the moon light creating a spider like shadow by shining through that curvy coat hook?Or caught a glimpse of someone walking down the street that you recognise so you turn round and go up to say HI but to your embarrassment discover this person doesn’t look anything like your friend?What about optical illusions? These things are designed to trick your eyes, you even know this but they still cause your eyes/brain to tell you things about the world that aren’t true.Our brains are forever reconstructing our view of the world based on resonable peripheral vision and then filling in the detail from memory and the small area of pin sharp detail at the centre of the retina. (Bout the size of your thumb nail with arm at full stretch) Your brain constructs the 3D world you experience entirely in your head and from a multitude of sources; peripheral vision, central vision and memory of previous experiences. There is every chance that the brain might mis-classify something if glimpsed in peripheral vision only.This is why you miss read certain words. You first identify words by their shape before looking at the component letters. Just pay attention to what you are doing when reading this post; you don’t painstakingly scan each letter of each word. You read along the sentence and recognise the words. So in this manner if you are driving down the street and glance at a sign on a van that readsJ Boggis & Sons Shopfittersthere is every chance you seeJ Boggis & Sons ShopliftersSame with T-Shirts. If some one walks towards you sporting a FCUK T-shirt, I would lay odds on you reading it wrong, and having to then look back and pay close attention to what it actually says.The simple fact is our eyes and brain make approximations and errors in portraying the world to us and then can make further errors in laying those memories down.--edit-- replaced the 'T' word for the word 'Fact' --This message has been edited by ohnhai, 28 February 2005 23:54 AM

wo.
You're holding some animosity towards me?Usually at this board I don't get insults because of differing opinions. I won't stoop down to your level bro but I can't say it's not tempting.See when you live life you form beliefs from experiences you have, now being uncertain of experiences can really affect your beliefs.There are two people:One thinks everything happens for a reason
The other thinks everyone is coincidenceI am certain of the things that have happened to me, I wouldn't get hung up on life if you can't remember everything. I believe the things you do remember is all you need. And uncertainty towards the makeup of your being can be tragic. peaceThis message has been edited by chris porcelain, 02-28-2005 19:50 AM

I'm saying the stuff you do remember is what matters.In shaping who you've become there have been landmarks in your life. Remebering the details needed for those landmarks is all you need.

Yeah, I really think it's beautiful were not perfect and I enjoyed how you described this.I think there has been a misinterpretation from those that have responded to me. But that's alright.

Funny, I thought you were arguing that we should trust our eyes, otherwise our lives would be adversely effected.People have false memories. It doesn't matter if "you do remember" something, because you could be remembering wrong, however real the memory seems to you. If you consider something a "landmark" in your life, it is quite likely that you may amplify the details of that memory since you've accepted it as life-altering.You do realize this is a thread on the accuracy of eye-witness testimony?

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Funny, I thought you were arguing that we should trust our eyes

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That's what I as talking about. Isn't it the same thing?

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consider something a "landmark" in your life, it is quite likely that you may amplify the details of that memory since you've accepted it as life-altering.

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You do realize this is a thread on the accuracy of eye-witness testimony?

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Shouldn't you feel secure in what you have seen and know?

Insults? Where did you get that idea? See, you just demonstrated how untrustworthy your memory can be. Oh great, you just turned a conversation about memory into evolution/creation debate. See why I don't have much respect for you?Remember your definition of what makes a person wise? You are certainly becoming wiser, according to your definition.

This is exactly what I was talking about. An educated intellectual should know that it is always wise to be careful with what he remembers. False memory syndrome can happen to anyone. Noone is immune to it.I have a friend that has somewhat of a photographic memory. She could tell you the first 100 digits of pi (pie) forward and backward. And yet, there have been some instances where we have debated some things and she admitted to remembering some things wrong.You are coming off from the premise that "I am always right" and you base all your arguments from that premise. Isn't it time you consider the possibility that you might be wrong in some things, including your own memory?