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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 241 of 300 (337064)
07-31-2006 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
07-31-2006 8:46 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
you know what?
fine. you're right. they just wanna kill all the jews and all the christians and everyone else. so let's bomb every country with a muslim population over 20% so we can rid the world of this horrid blight. and then when we have lost all sense of humanity and god himself comes down to tell us just how hateful and horrible and unforgivable we have become then we can all thank you, faith, for leading us into the proper and true christian path.
i've had enough. i simply can't take this anymore. have a good live and enjoy your smug, self-righteous, fuck-all-else bullshit. i'll see you in hell.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 8:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 10:03 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 242 of 300 (337065)
07-31-2006 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Faith
07-31-2006 8:25 PM


Re: Lebonese civilians guilty (blood money)
Well if the Lebanese civilians can be expected to flee to their countrymen up North to avoid being caught up in the hostilities why can't the civilians in Northern Israel flee to their countrymen in the South?
Because Israel has been giving warning, which gives time to evacuate, but Hezbollah doesn't. And they don't have to go so far as all that. Look at the map of Beirut in my Message 198. They just have to walk a few blocks to be safe.
My jaw dropped and I just sat there with my mouth open after I read this.
They just have to walk a few blocks to be safe???
Your map is of Beirut Faith - which is located in the centre of Lebanon someting like forty or fifty miles from the Southern Border with Israel. We're talking about the people who live in the border region with Israel, not the people who live in Beirut!
If I recall correctly the last warnings the Israelis dropped in the border area told people they had to go North of the Litani River, which is anything up to twenty miles from the border.
They just have to walk a few blocks to be safe - your racist contempt and lack of compassion for the Lebanese civilians just gets worse and worse.
As for the giving warning - Hezbollah has said pretty much from the first day it was going to fire into Northern Israel. That's pretty much exactly the warning the Isrealis have given.
By the way, although it appears not have been a problem yet - although that's no guarantee of the future - the inhabitants of Southern Lebanon are mostly Shia whereas the population Northwards is mostly Druze, Christian or Sunni. It's not that long since these groups were at each other's throats in a bloddy civil war.
Your point?
I actually started typing in an explanation in the original post but decided to delete it on the grounds that I was insulting the intelligence of anyone with half a brain.
Oh well.
The point is simple. For fifteen years from 1975 to 1990 Lebanon was torn apart by a brutal civil war between the different ethnic, religious and political groups in the country. The wounds of that civil war are, as after any such conflict, not all that far beneath the surface. You are saying that a huge number of refugees from one group (the Shias from the Southern region) should be dumped onto one of the other groups they were until recently at war with. That's a recipe for potential trouble.
You may not care if Lebanon descends into civil war again (since you've made it very plain you don't care how many Lebanese die) but anyone with an ounce of decency in their soul doesn't want to see it happen.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 8:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 9:49 PM MangyTiger has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 300 (337076)
07-31-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by MangyTiger
07-31-2006 9:21 PM


Escaping the war zone isn't hard
Nobody said they had to move that far north. My point was simple. The attacks from Israel are pretty precise. It is not as if the entire country is being bombarded. Getting out of the war zone simply cannot be impossible to pull off, considering that they have SPECIFIC warning -- and anybody in the area MUST know where Hezbollah positions are located, unless they are keeping the people that much in the dark. The map was just an illustration of how the thing is blown out of proportion by the media -- Beirut destroyed and all that, when it's not true at all -- and the distances between the danger zones and safety are SMALL! Qana was no doubt equally precisely targeted. Staying in harm's way can't be blamed on Israel.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by MangyTiger, posted 07-31-2006 9:21 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 3:03 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 300 (337078)
07-31-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by macaroniandcheese
07-31-2006 9:21 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
you know what?
fine. you're right. they just wanna kill all the jews and all the christians and everyone else. so let's bomb every country with a muslim population over 20% so we can rid the world of this horrid blight. and then when we have lost all sense of humanity and god himself comes down to tell us just how hateful and horrible and unforgivable we have become then we can all thank you, faith, for leading us into the proper and true christian path.
i've had enough. i simply can't take this anymore. have a good live and enjoy your smug, self-righteous, fuck-all-else bullshit. i'll see you in hell.
All I have said about how to deal with terrorism is to CONDEMN their actions. I've said that if world opinion were loud and clear against them, that would END the violence. Israel would not BE in this position. That's a call for LOUD VOICES from the UN and all over the world, NOT MILITARY ACTION, flat-out unequivocal condemnation, instead of this attitude of appeasement and justification and this false equivalence with Israel's situation. Backed up by force IF NECESSARY. It might not be necessary if everybody got sane and recognized the true cause of the problem.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-31-2006 9:21 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 300 (337098)
07-31-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Omnivorous
07-31-2006 6:36 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
Omni writes:
How many Lebanese women and children stand between an unfettered Israel and peace? You believe Israel should just kill until they obtain an abject surrender? If that hasn't worked in Iraq--like it never worked in Vietnam--why do you think the slaughter of civilians can achieve peace in the Middle East?
Peace in the middle east will not achievable ever, humanly speaking. Why? because of the violent nature of Islam as practiced by Mohammed and his desciples and as practiced by the never ending hoard of Islamic fundamentalists now who do violence as Mohammed their prophet and his desciples did and taught. Only Armageddon and intervention of God himself by the 2nd advent of Jesus will end the violence. It will come at a huge price of human lives due to the deception ingrained in the Middle East fundamentalist nations.
The only thing the free world can do until then is to hold them at bay violently and at the cost of much life. The free world is between a rock and a hard place. If we do nothing, they advance to our nations even faster than they are presently advancing. If we fight, at least we slow down the advance of fundamentalist violent Islam. It is more dangerous than Communism was because it's fanatic followers are willing to die in order to terrorize their way into power in the nations. Communist fighters wore uniforms for the most part and were forced to fight by their governments. Islamic terrorists volunteer themselves to die in order to kill as many as possible to advance the fundamentals of Islam which includes the violence.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Omnivorous, posted 07-31-2006 6:36 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 11:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 246 of 300 (337099)
07-31-2006 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Buzsaw
07-31-2006 11:28 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
Good statement, Buz. But all that is going to mean to anybody here is that you're a racist as they say I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2006 11:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2006 11:52 PM Faith has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 247 of 300 (337100)
07-31-2006 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
07-31-2006 3:21 PM


Re: Media propaganda?
Really, the quantity of your links proves nothing.
Actually the quantity of my links refutes your claims of
quote:
I would guess that they'd cover the casualties, certainly, but along with that coverage they'd be sure to be "balanced" and show the Lebanese side
and
quote:
the Israelis are hiding in shelters and that isn't covered.
And like I said before, there are plenty more where that came from.
The emphasis in the media is always against Israel whether there are reports on Israel or not.
Prove it.
Just showing a distraught man carrying a dead child is an indictment of Israel
So we should never see any images of carnage lest we get the wrong idea about Israel?
though the man may be acting
Oh please. Can you prove that that has ever happened?
may be unrelated to the child
Why does relation matter? Why shouldn't anyone be distraught while carrying a dead child?
the child may even have been hit by Hezbollah fire -- this has happened though it's been attributed to Israel
Can you provide proof for that claim?
and so on, and the fact that they were warned to leave is played down. This was the headline on AOL all day yesterday.
I already answered this. Did the people who did not evacuate before Katrina deserve what they got? What about the people who could not leave? You still haven't answered that.
I would have to agree that sometimes reporters do not get all the facts (I would have to disagree that it is always deliberate disinformation like your JVL source wishes you to believe), but if we are on the topic of pictures of yesterday's bombings, the images of civilians in those particular pictures were actually victims of the attack in Qana, which Israel is currently investigating, but not denying that they actually struck the target which killed almost 60 people.
By the way, did you actually investigate the claims of "disinformation" made by the Jewish Virtual Library? They cleverly do not leave any references, but just throw out claims without backing them up. I was only a child in 1982 so I don't have any recollection of that war, but I can't seem to find any articles discussing the photo of the baby except for one from a 2000 NY Post article which seems to conflict with the JVL account and another from some conspiracy wingnut insisting that the picture was replaced by the Isrealis. There are, of course, a few other sites which have copies of the info from the JVL (I don't know if they copied the JVL or if the JVL cpoied from somewhere else). The picture may very well have been false and I don't want to pay to access news archives to dig deeper, but since your source did not give any referneces, their claim is suspect as it stands.
Same with the "10,000 killed and 600,000 homeless" bit. Again, I am having trouble finding any supporting evidence for JVL's specific claim (especially the bit about Francesco Noseda...no information available about him at all really or at least not in English) and also finding accurate numbers for casualties and displaced persons during the 1982 conflict, but I did manage to find a couple of sites that asserted that the numbers were fallacious, but they did not give the "correct" numbers. I do realize that numbers are often inflated to give a false impression (entertainment venues do it as well as protests/rallies, churches, etc), but the other side often gives extremely conservative estimates (happens in wars as well as the abovementioned instances). My problem with the JVL site is that they go on to imply that because the numbers were inflated then (again without making any attempt to cite the official counts or supply external references) that the numbers coming out of Lebanon today are wrong as well.
Here is a ReliefWeb document citing the UN numbers.
Here is a document from the International Medical Corps describing their operations in Lebanon and Syria citing numbers as well.
Here is a Doctors Without Borders site breaking down the numbers by region
Here is a Christian website citing numbers provided by the Middle East Council of Churches
Here is a USAID site with numbers from the HRC
So your trusty source is apparently just talking out of its ass. Maybe I'll start a thread on the rest of their information. This stuff is just from the page you provided the link for.
No, because you believe that account covers it, based on nothing but first impressios. Deaths could have been avoided according to what criterion? Apparently some emotional feeling of your own buttressed by the slanted news reports. Why weren't the civilians evacuated when they were warned? They WERE warned. Hezbollah strongholds ARE in those areas, and those ARE the target, and the civilian casualties could have been avoided if Hezbollah hadn't put them in harm's way and if Israel's warnings were heeded. My first comment on your rush to judgment was correct:
No, Faith, you are not correct. You have no idea what I base my opinions on and you actually have no idea what my opinions are. Like many on here have said, just because I call Israel on their shortcomings (to put it lightly) does not mean that I am "anti-Israel" or that I sympathize with terrorists. I simply am concerned with the inncoent life that is caught in the crossfire on BOTH sides and try to work towards living in a more peaceful world. Your callous disdain for the deaths of innocent people speaks volumes, Faith.
Oh and I eagerly await your answer my question about those who are unable or too afraid to leave when they are told to evacuate. Do they deserve to die?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 3:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:00 AM Jaderis has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 300 (337101)
07-31-2006 11:46 PM


Re: Israel Doing The UN's Work
Israel is simply doing the work the UN was suppose to have been doing a long time ago and instead the UN ignored their own resolution/law concerning Hezbollah, i.e. Resolution 1559 which as to disarm Hezbollah. Now at this late date, major surgery is needed in Lebanon and Israel is doing it, not only for their own survival, but for the whole world. The world should be very grateful that there is a nation in the Middle East able and willing to do this nasty job. Instead the world, for the most part in ignorance is condemning Israel, when in stead they should be mad as hell at the UN secretary general who has a history of coddling Islamic extremists and fire his crooked worthless arss. THE UN NEEDS A THOROUGH HOUSECLEANING BAD.
In war things are suppose to get broken and people are suppose to be killed. Hezbollah terrorists choose to use innocent folks as human shields. By this, they expect to win and win they will if they are not hit. The innocent folks are not being murdered by Israel who must do what they have to do. They are being ruthlessly murdered by the terrorist who shoot from their bedrooms, likely forbidding them to leave. They want as many civilians killed as possible so as to make Israel look bad to the world and the world is swallowing the trick hook line and sinker.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 08-01-2006 12:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 259 by Nighttrain, posted 08-01-2006 12:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 295 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 3:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 300 (337102)
07-31-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
07-31-2006 11:32 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
Thanks Faith. At least they can't say we're anti-Semetic.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 11:32 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 08-01-2006 12:36 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 300 (337103)
08-01-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Jaderis
07-31-2006 11:35 PM


Re: Media propaganda?
I have no "callous disdain." That shows your bias that you claim not to have.
And there is no way to "prove" the leftist bias because everything I've shown about it so far, as on the AOL report, is not recognized, obvious though it is to me. I will read your links and see leftist bias; you will rationalize it away. That's all that ever happens and it is not worth the trouble.
How does one provide proof for a claim that something MAY have happened? A child's being hit by Hezbollah fire certainly MAY may have happened, and the reason that is a real possibility is that the whole point is propaganda to blame everything on Israel without regard to real causes. The young child that was killed hiding alongside his father that made the news a few years ago was as much in the line of terrorist fire as IDF fire.
though the man may be acting
Oh please. Can you prove that that has ever happened?
I wish I weren't worn out from all the posting I've done today. Yes it can be proved but I may not be able to. Muslims fake illness, pretend to be sick. Video of one being carried on a stretcher that I saw years ago now, showed the stretcher being dropped, but he just got up and walked. Ambulances being used for terrorist activities. Men dressing as women, as in Deir Yassin. Promise of surrender only to get the Israelis close enough to fire on them happened there too. Hoking it all up for TV is a polished skill. Masters of fakery. All dishonest duplicity.
People DESERVING TO DIE is just a smear phrase. Nobody said anybody DESERVES TO DIE. You are thinking with your emotions as everybody else is, and just full of self-righteous indignation, just making up accusations from your own biased mental set. I'm giving my objective analysis of the situation as well as I can and do not deserve your accusations.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Jaderis, posted 07-31-2006 11:35 PM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by MangyTiger, posted 08-01-2006 7:54 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 300 (337104)
08-01-2006 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Buzsaw
07-31-2006 11:46 PM


The Face of Evil
Anyone who would like to stare EVIL in the face, please read Message 245 and Message 248. There you will see stark pure unadulterated EVIL masking as a Christian position.
That my friends is the EVIL in the world, not the terrorists, not the Muslims, there in Christians who can write such passages of venom, who have NO idea of Christ's message, who are actively blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2006 11:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:24 AM jar has not replied
 Message 271 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 08-01-2006 7:54 AM jar has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 252 of 300 (337105)
08-01-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Faith
07-31-2006 8:25 PM


Re: Lebonese civilians guilty (blood money)
They just have to walk a few blocks to be safe.
Are you fucking kidding me??? Your map only shows Beirut and neglects to mention the fact that the neighborhoods around the targets have been continously bombed. They also do not mention the suburbs of Beirut which have also been bombed.
The majority of the refugees are coming out of Southern Lebanon anyways. Beirut is only a part of the campaign.
See NYTimes interactive maps detailing day by day accounts of where attacks from both sides are landing. You have to clink on the Interactive Graphic link in the Multimedia box to get to the maps
Do a little bit of research before you go off with all this nonsense, will you?
Edited by AdminJar, : edited to fix link
Edited by Jaderis, : went to fix link...thanks jar
Edited by Jaderis, : added instructions for the link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 8:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:22 AM Jaderis has replied
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:35 AM Jaderis has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 253 of 300 (337108)
08-01-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Jaderis
08-01-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Lebonese civilians guilty (blood money)
Either get polite or shut up. I'm not responding to you when you talk like that. Your emotional self-righteous rants are out of place. And read farther before you comment on something that I may have answered later anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Jaderis, posted 08-01-2006 12:08 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Jaderis, posted 08-01-2006 12:32 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 254 of 300 (337109)
08-01-2006 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
08-01-2006 12:06 AM


Re: The Face of Evil
Buz gave a truthful objective statement of the realities of the situation and as usual he is answered with misplaced moral indignation putting good for evil and evil for good. No wonder the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 08-01-2006 12:06 AM jar has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 255 of 300 (337110)
08-01-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
08-01-2006 12:22 AM


Re: Lebonese civilians guilty (blood money)
Either get polite or shut up. I'm not responding to you when you talk like that. Your emotional rants are out of place. And read farther before you comment on something that I may have answered later anyway
Your answer to MT was woefully inadequate and did not address the fact that your map only addresses Beirut proper and not all of the other dozens of areas in Lebanon being targeted. Your comment about the Lebanese refugees not having to "move that far north" ignores the fact that the people who can and do evacuate probably want to get as far away from the fighting as possible. Not "just a few blocks."
Hence why so many are actually fleeing the country

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 08-01-2006 12:38 AM Jaderis has not replied

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