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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 1 of 300 (333874)
07-20-2006 11:19 PM


This thread is to let us carry on from Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?

Oops! Wrong Planet

AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 300 (333875)
07-20-2006 11:25 PM


Administrative goof.
I did my first topic closure on the Israel thread and forgot to post a closure statement. My apologies for that.

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 300 (333877)
07-20-2006 11:33 PM


Terrorists To Blame
Jar: "Bullshit Buz. Rank Bullshit.
Of course there are other choices than blowing up ambulances. Hell, even during real War the armies tried to respect Red Cross units."
I see you totally ignored my point that terrorists likely use the emergency equipment to move war supplies et al. Again it is they who are responsible for the hits on these kinds of targets. Civilians have been warned by Israel to get north so there's not suppose to be any there. If Hezbollah uses them as hostages again they are the murderers of innocents, not Israel.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by MangyTiger, posted 07-20-2006 11:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 07-21-2006 12:52 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 07-21-2006 4:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2006 8:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 4 of 300 (333878)
07-20-2006 11:50 PM


buzsaw's latest view on the conflict
In Message 299 of the original thread buz writes (entire message reproduced for completeness) :
Only ruthless coward terrorists operate with civilians. They and they alone are responsible for the people they are causing to be killed and now on the news Israel has dropped leaflets WARNING all civilians to head north but the Hezbollah cowards are setting up checkpoints prohibiting their flight so they can continue to use them for cover. This leaves Israel no choice. Unfortunately they can't let the terrorists protect themselves in this fashion so Israel has no choice in order to protect themselves and win the war.
This bit caught my eye:
but the Hezbollah cowards are setting up checkpoints prohibiting their flight so they can continue to use them for cover
I haven't seen this reported over here and an admitedly quick Google shows nothing - can you produce a source for this story?
Speaking of Isreal warning the inhabitants to leave, I suppose you're ok with the events at Marwaheen where the Isrealis warned the inhabitants they had hours to leave and then when a convy of families tried to leave they were butchered by an Israeli air strike.
Let's be very clear about the chain of events here:
  • The Israelis tell the inhabitants of a village they have hours to leave
  • The civilians obey the warning to get out
  • As civilians leave a village where the Israelis told them they had to get out they are attacked by an Israeli aircraft
Is it ok to order people to flee their homes and then slaughter them when they obey your order buz? Do you think maybe adjectives like ruthless or cowardly are applicable?
Even if this was a cock up rather than a deliberate act (I regard both as plausible explanations) Israel doesn't come out of this any better.
If you have any pretensions to be a civilised country then if you explicitly order civilians to be on a road then you have an absolute duty to ensure your military isn't going to attack them while they are obeying your order. At the very least the Israelis failed to do this.

Oops! Wrong Planet

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 11:09 PM MangyTiger has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 5 of 300 (333879)
07-20-2006 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
07-20-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
Civilians have been warned by Israel to get north so there's not suppose to be any there.
And they are supposed to get North how? Most of the roads and bridges in Southern Lebanon have had the crap blown out of them. Just tonight there was an article on the BBC News over here from a Lebanese hospital where it was said that people are dying because they are getting injured in their homes by the Israeli bombardment and then can't get to hospital because the roads are impassable for most vehicles.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 07-20-2006 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by lfen, posted 07-21-2006 1:02 AM MangyTiger has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 6 of 300 (333881)
07-21-2006 12:17 AM


For buz - why are Hezbollah's fighters cowards?
In the original thread you said:
Only ruthless coward terrorists operate with civilians
I'm intrigued on what basis you regard the Hezbollah fighters as cowards (I should point out I don't support Hezbollah's aims or methods, but I think you are wrong in this assessment).
They are taking on an opponent with a massive - indeed insurmountable - advantage in convential weaponry. Currently they are able to do two things:
  • Launch rockets into Northern Israel
  • Engage the IDF when it crosses the border as it has started doing in the last day or two
Now you may decry the launching of rockets and/or unguided missiles into Israeli cities but that's irrelevant to the point under discussion. The Israelis have total, 100% air supremacy and have demonstrated their willingness to not only destroy any rocket launcher that fires for more than a short time but also to attack any vehicle that looks even remotely like it might be carrying rockets while it is on the road.
This means any Hezbollah fighter who is operating a rocket lanucher or moving it from place to place is at serious risk of being blown up by an air strike that they have no defence against. If they were cowards they wouldn't have anybody firing the rockets.
As for fighting the IDF - again it's David against Goliath except this time Israel is Goliath. Hezbollah has no tanks, no self propelled guns, no heavy artillery (I haven't heard of them using anything bigger than mortars), no air support of any sort and is, at the end of the day, just a militia. The Israelis have all those things that Hezbollah doesn't. Again, nobody who is a coward would be willing to engage the IDF in a ground action - and yet that's what has been going on since Israel started sending troops over the border to engage Hezbollah.
So I have to ask again, on what basis do you describe them as cowards? Isn't this just an example of demonising your enemy?

Oops! Wrong Planet

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2006 2:59 AM MangyTiger has not replied
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2006 10:57 PM MangyTiger has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 300 (333884)
07-21-2006 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
07-20-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
I see you totally ignored my point that terrorists likely use the emergency equipment to move war supplies et al.
Yes, you so asserted. But that is also simply not a sufficient justification. Just because one side might "likely use the emergency equipment to move war supplies et al" does not justify Israel bombing ambulances.
Again it is they who are responsible for the hits on these kinds of targets.
Bullshit Buz. It is the Israelis who are responsible. 100% responsible in this case.
Civilians have been warned by Israel to get north so there's not suppose to be any there. If Hezbollah uses them as hostages again they are the murderers of innocents, not Israel.
Thank you Buz. Israel has warned folk to leave and so if they don't then it is their own fault if they get bombed.
Interesting logic Buz, so if the Palestinians have warned the Israelis to leave the middle east and they stay then it is the Israeli's fault if they get bombed.
Keep posting Buz. You make your version of Christianity clearer with every post.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 07-20-2006 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 07-21-2006 3:31 AM jar has not replied
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 4:55 AM jar has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 8 of 300 (333885)
07-21-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by MangyTiger
07-20-2006 11:55 PM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
And they are supposed to get North how?
Well, there must be a way. Remember according to Buz, Isreal has never done anything wrong, and never will. So knowing that it can't ever be Isreal's fault you simply have to look elsewhere for the blame.
Now isn't that easy?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by MangyTiger, posted 07-20-2006 11:55 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by MangyTiger, posted 07-21-2006 3:22 PM lfen has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 300 (333896)
07-21-2006 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by MangyTiger
07-21-2006 12:17 AM


Re: For buz - why are Hezbollah's fighters cowards?
The North isn't even safe. Israel attacked Tripoli a few days ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by MangyTiger, posted 07-21-2006 12:17 AM MangyTiger has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 300 (333900)
07-21-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
07-21-2006 12:52 AM


Black and white divisions
Bullshit Buz. It is the Israelis who are responsible. 100% responsible in this case.
Actually both sides share responsibility. When one side masquerades as civillians and uses civillian services to transport weapons, they must accept the consequences of doing that: civillian deaths.
Indeed, people like Hezbollah not only accept the consequences...they plan for them. They do it not just to protect themselves, but to endanger others. When the enemy starts killing lots of civillians, they become unpopular which helps swell their ranks (and thus pockets).
Israel are responsible because better than anybody, they should know this. However, constantly facing this kind of combat has seemingly numbed them to it. They have repeated the mantra that it is the other sides fault for putting the civillians in danger so often that they believe it. Imagine a police officer in a hostage situation simply gunning down thirty hostages to kill three hostage takers (who were also active shooters).
Israel is 100% responsible for these deaths, but so is Hezbollah. Black and white has never applied to the Middle East.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 07-21-2006 12:52 AM jar has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 300 (333905)
07-21-2006 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
07-21-2006 12:52 AM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
Yes, you so asserted. But that is also simply not a sufficient justification. Just because one side might "likely use the emergency equipment to move war supplies et al" does not justify Israel bombing ambulances.
There's no doubt they knew for sure that the ambulances were a camouflage. Good intelligence you know, and they've dealt with this sort of thing a lot. I saw the funniest video a few years ago of a bunch of Palestinians running alongside a stretcher that was carried by two of them, for all the world trying to get their wounded buddy to help, when they dropped the stretcher and the "wounded" buddy got up and walked. It's a favorite terrorist camouflage. Makes for the juiciest PR denunciations of Israel when Israel takes them out don't you know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 07-21-2006 12:52 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2006 8:11 AM Faith has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 300 (333906)
07-21-2006 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
07-20-2006 11:33 PM


Israeli army, ruthless cowards by Buz's criteria?
Hi Buz,
you posted that:
Only ruthless coward terrorists operate with civilians.
So, with this in mind, will you agree with me that the Israeli army has, over the last few decades, been ruthless cowards since they have used Palestinian civilians as human shields?
This is from Amnesty International
Amnesty International welcomes the banning, by Israel's High Court, of the use of Palestinians as "human shields" by the Israeli army. The long-awaited High Court ruling of 6 October 2005 came in response to a petition filed in May 2002 by several Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations seeking a ban of the practice, which endangered the lives of the Palestinians who were used as "human shields" and violated international law, notably Article 51 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
In recent years, Amnesty International investigated tens of cases where the Israeli army used Palestinians, children as well as adults, as "human shields" during military operations in towns and refugee camps throughout the Occupied Territories. Palestinian civilians were forced to walk in front of Israeli soldiers who, at times, fired their weapons while shielding themselves behind the civilians. As well, Palestinian civilians were made to enter houses ahead of Israeli soldiers to check for explosives or gunmen hiding inside, to inspect suspicious objects, to stay in their houses when Israeli soldiers took them over to use as sniper positions, or to enter the houses of wanted, possibly armed, Palestinians to tell them to surrender to Israeli forces.
Even Israeli groups protested about their army using civilians as shields.
So Buz, do you agree that, by your own criteria, the Israeli army have been ruthless cowards?
I await your reply.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 07-20-2006 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 300 (333920)
07-21-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
07-20-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
I see you totally ignored my point that terrorists likely use the emergency equipment to move war supplies et al.
The Red Crescent doesn't let them do this. And regardless of terrorist propensities which may or may not be true, it's a violation of the Geneva Conventions to fire upon clearly-marked emergency vehicles.
That was a convoy of ambulances. It was not a convoy of terrorists, and the fact that Israel fired on it does not prove that it was. Israel committed a war crime. They did not fire on terrorists. They fired on medical personnel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 07-20-2006 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 300 (333921)
07-21-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
07-21-2006 4:55 AM


Re: Terrorists To Blame
There's no doubt they knew for sure that the ambulances were a camouflage.
But this is nonsense. We know for absolutely sure that they were just ambulances. No weapons, no terrorists, nothing.
It's a violation of the Geneva Conventions to fire on a Red Cross/Red Crescent vehicle. There's absolutely nothing that Israel "knew."
Again - the fact that Israel bombed these ambulances doesn't prove that the ambulances were full of terrorists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 4:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 07-21-2006 11:40 AM crashfrog has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 300 (333945)
07-21-2006 11:05 AM


Re: Hitting ambulances
Concerning the amulance matter, likely one or two medical vehicles were hit either accidently or due to suspected missuse and the leftist newspeople put it like it was commonplace to badmouth Israel.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
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