Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 61 (9209 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: The Rutificador chile
Post Volume: Total: 919,503 Year: 6,760/9,624 Month: 100/238 Week: 17/83 Day: 8/9 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Karl Rove: Traitor?
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 211 of 271 (229126)
08-03-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Tal
08-03-2005 10:05 AM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Tal writes:
Source?
How about this interview from CNN.com? Will that do Tal? Enjoy reading Novak’s own words.
BLITZER: Now, in today's column, I think you wrote in The Chicago Sun-Times and The Washington Post, appearing as well, you wrote this: "He asked me not to use her name," referring to a CIA official, "saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment, but that exposure of her name might cause difficulties if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name." How much did they press you and say, you know what, this is really a problem? Please don't use her name. She's a covert operative.
NOVAK: It was what I call a weak request. In journalism we are asked not to use things constantly. I'm sure you have been. Don't use that, Wolf. I was asked by the CIA official not to use it. He did not, at any point, say her life was in danger. He did not press it. I thought it was in the nature of a pro forma request after a conversation in which he had detailed Ambassador Wilson's mission, explained to me that the mission -- that there was never a written report. A lot of people don't even know that. There was no written report.
Tal writes:
Evidence?
Tal, it is a crime to even verify what the reporter was asking him. If he (Karl Rove) knows that the info he's being asked to verify came from a classified source it's a crime from him to say even "yes" or in some way validate or invalidate the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 10:05 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 1:33 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 212 of 271 (229207)
08-03-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by FliesOnly
08-03-2005 10:54 AM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Ok, I see the CIA asked him not to use the name.
Tal, it is a crime to even verify what the reporter was asking him. If he (Karl Rove) knows that the info he's being asked to verify came from a classified source it's a crime from him to say even "yes" or in some way validate or invalidate the question.
So why hasn't Rove been indicted?

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by FliesOnly, posted 08-03-2005 10:54 AM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by FliesOnly, posted 08-03-2005 1:53 PM Tal has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 213 of 271 (229222)
08-03-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Tal
08-03-2005 1:33 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Tal writes:
So why hasn't Rove been indicted?
That is a question I cannot answer. Perhaps he will be, only Fitzgerald knows for sure.
But let me ask you this. Why do you seem to keep defending Karl Rove? You are a military man Tal, do you not think that what he did was reprehensible? Quit being such a die hard Republican and simply address this as an American...a member of our Armed Forces. Karl Rove knowingly released the name of a CIA agent...why are you not pissed-off? Honestly, I really would like some sort of justification from you as to why you deem this particular act to be no big deal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 1:33 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 3:37 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 214 of 271 (229297)
08-03-2005 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by FliesOnly
08-03-2005 1:53 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Why do you seem to keep defending Karl Rove?
Because he hasn't been charged with a crime and from I've read, I don't think he commited one in any shape, form, or fashion.
Karl Rove knowingly released the name of a CIA agent
No he didn't. He said, "I think his wife works in the CIA." is a long way from saying Valerie Plame is a secret CIA operative and will you please publish her name.
Maybe I wouldn't let this go so easily if the media wouldn't have made up storiees about flushing Korans down the toilet and the Rathergate fiasco that used forge documents. The left hate the military and especially hate the Bush administration. They have tried to demonize EVERYONE they can in the Bush administration, and none of it has stuck.
This won't stick either.

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by FliesOnly, posted 08-03-2005 1:53 PM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by arachnophilia, posted 08-03-2005 7:00 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 216 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2005 7:17 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 217 by FliesOnly, posted 08-04-2005 10:43 AM Tal has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1600 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 215 of 271 (229437)
08-03-2005 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tal
08-03-2005 3:37 PM


spin spin spin
No he didn't. He said, "I think his wife works in the CIA." is a long way from saying Valerie Plame is a secret CIA operative and will you please publish her name.
you keep dancing aorund this point. it's not the NAME that matters. it's the identity. if you are the wife of a public figure, just linking the name of your husband to the cia is enough to endanger the life of a covert operative and mess up foreign relations if a face is recognized.
keep in mind -- even OUR government is retarded and doesn't read its memo, other governments and terrorist agencies DO. saying "so and so's wife works at the cia" and then charging that she was influential in sending him somewhere kind of indicates that she's not a janitor or a secretary. what do you think "works at the cia" means, tal?
who "works at the cia" do you think? when i hear "works at the cia" is think "spy" and so does everyone else in the room.
Maybe I wouldn't let this go so easily if the media wouldn't have made up storiees about flushing Korans down the toilet and the Rathergate fiasco that used forge documents.
no, we've never seen scandals about this administration regarding documents they've forged, have we? oh wait, that's kind of what this is about, isn't it? retaliation for outing forgeries.
The left hate the military and especially hate the Bush administration.
no tal, the right hates the military. you never responded to my disproof of your propaganda regarding how deadly iraq is. i listed the names, ranks, and dates of all of YOUR fallen comrades, and numbered the ones that were killed as a result of combat. your right-wing propaganda forgot more than a dozen people.
why do you support people who are willing to fudge numbers like that, and not even acknowledge the sacrfice you and your troops are willing to make? it seems to me that any group that willing sends people to war for fictional causes and then easily forgets the deaths that results obviously hates that group. doesn't it?
They have tried to demonize EVERYONE they can in the Bush administration, and none of it has stuck.
rove barely needs demonizing. i think his actions speak louder than any words the left could speak about him. are you familiar with his history?
This won't stick either.
yes, well, it's harder to stick someone with a charge of "treason" when we're not at war. speaking of hating the military, how do you feel about that? us not being at war, but still getting shot, i mean.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 3:37 PM Tal has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 216 of 271 (229449)
08-03-2005 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tal
08-03-2005 3:37 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Maybe I wouldn't let this go so easily if the media wouldn't have made up storiees about flushing Korans down the toilet
Sorry to burst your bubble but all those stories turned out to be true - verified by the US Government.
Guess you didn't hear?
This won't stick either.
Bush's greatest defense is his down-home charm. A lot of folks don't want to believe that he's capable of mendacious deeds.
That charm doesn't apply to Rove. Rove's guilty as hell and he's going down. The latest approval polls show that he's taking Bush with him, among everybody except (of course) Republicans who refuse to admit any flaw in the Bush presidency.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 3:37 PM Tal has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 217 of 271 (229672)
08-04-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tal
08-03-2005 3:37 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Tal writes:
Because he hasn't been charged with a crime...
Look, Tal, I've said this repeatedly: Ignore the legalities of what Rove did...whether or not he committed a crime is not for you or I to decide...Fitzgerald will make that determination. I'm asking you about the ethics of what he did. We hear so much from the Republican Party about how they have such high moral and ethical standards...that they are Party of integrity. How can that be, when here we have a case where a senior member of the White House Staff released information from a classified document that resulted in a CIA opperative being outed, and our President does nothing? Actually, that's not entirely true...he has done something...he has publically stated his continued support for the leaker...how can that possibly be an ethical thing Tal?
Tal writes:
No he didn't. He said, "I think his wife works in the CIA." is a long way from saying Valerie Plame is a secret CIA operative and will you please publish her name.
I'll try this again. If he knew that the information he heard from the reporter came from any sort of classified document, then he committed a crime. Do you get it now? Even saying "I think his wife works in the CIA." is a crime, if the info came from a classified document. And my understanding of the situation is that the info came from classified memo sent to Colin Powell.
Tal writes:
Maybe I wouldn't let this go so easily if the media wouldn't have made up storiees about flushing Korans down the toilet...
But as Crashfrog has already pointed out...that was true.
Tal writes:
...and the Rathergate fiasco that used forge documents.
The funny thing about that particular situation is that the point of the story got lost, and to this day has not really been addressed.
Tal writes:
The left hate the military and especially hate the Bush administration.
What a bunch of bull shit. I'm from the left and I fully support our military. My father served in the Air Force and, up to a couple years ago, my brother worked for the Air Force. I've always been in favor of a strong military and stand behind them whenever they are asked to serve. So fuck you and your petty bull shit attitude about how the left hates the military.
Remeber Tal, it was Kerry the volunteered and actually served in Vietnam, not our current President (or Vice President, or Sect of Defense, or...)
Tal writes:
They have tried to demonize EVERYONE they can in the Bush administration,...
Tal, you really have to do some reading about the tactics of Karl Rove. Seriously Tal, he has got to be one of the most unethical people currently in politics.
What floors me the most though is how you, a member of our Armed Forces, can somehow support Karl Rove. Actually I am stunned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Tal, posted 08-03-2005 3:37 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Tal, posted 11-02-2005 2:15 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 218 of 271 (255458)
10-29-2005 5:25 AM


Update

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by berberry, posted 10-31-2005 9:47 PM Silent H has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 271 (255921)
10-31-2005 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Silent H
10-29-2005 5:25 AM


Forging The Case For War
holmes, you (and I hope others) will most definitely be interested in reading this piece from - I kid you not - The American Conservative!
It seems there might be a LOT more to the Plame leak case than even us liberals thought. If its allegations are true, this article puts several of the missing puzzle pieces into place. I've been hearing a lot about the Niger forgeries for some time now, as I'm sure you have. But until now I had not heard that they might tie into the Plame leak in the way Giraldi alleges. Apparently this story is growing legs in the Italian press. Hopefully, Fitzgerald is on it.
So far I've heard only a very few liberals allege that the White House might have been intimately involved in the Niger forgeries. I've certainly never heard a conservative allege such a thing. Until now.

"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Silent H, posted 10-29-2005 5:25 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Silent H, posted 11-01-2005 4:52 AM berberry has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 6075 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 220 of 271 (255942)
11-01-2005 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by berberry
10-31-2005 9:47 PM


Re: Forging The Case For War
But until now I had not heard that they might tie into the Plame leak in the way Giraldi alleges. Apparently this story is growing legs in the Italian press. Hopefully, Fitzgerald is on it.
Thanks for the article. I was aware of the suspected Italian origin of the Niger document, but the author certainly had an interesting connection between that and Washington.
I doubt that Fitzgerald will even begin to touch this subject because he appears very focused on one topic, and may not want to divert into other things just to keep himself from being slammed for going on a paranoid witchhunt by already hypocritical Reps (who felt perjury charges regarding blowjobs were not a diversion from a financial criminal case).
This would really be great if congressmen picked it up and called for an investigation. Though the senate report on Iraq touched on the yellow cake fiasco, they did not probe intensively on where that came from.
The connection to Feith makes a hell of a lot of sense. And indeed he was attacked along similar grounds by the senate. Here is a Wiki article on him, from which...
In July 2004, this Pentagon unit was heavily criticized by the Senate intelligence committee's review of the intelligence leading to war in Iraq, alleging that the Office of Special Plans sought to sideline the CIA's assessments of intelligence on Iraq. Senator Jay Rockefeller, the Democrat co-chair of the committee, said that Feith's office may have undertaken "unlawful" intelligence-gathering initiatives, resulting in calls for Feith's resignation.
So why not? Though maybe he has already been axed in a backdoor way...
On January 26, 2005, the DoD announced that Feith was leaving for "personal reasons." His future plans, if any, are unknown.
I have discussed him and Perle before as having been shapers of our MidEast policy and scary as hell. That they would do anything to get us into a war with Iraq is pretty well beyond question...
Feith is a neoconservative and a Zionist, and advocates a close alliance between the United States and Israel. Some of his critics describe him as anti-Arab (see e.g. [3]).
A protege of Richard Perle, the former chairman of Rumsfeld's Defense Policy Board (DPB) who stands at the center of the neo-conservative foreign-policy network in Washington, Feith has long opposed territorial compromise by Israel...
In 1996 he participated in a study group chaired by Perle that produced a report called "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" [4] for incoming Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. In the report Feith, along with Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser, called for building a strategic alliance with Turkey, Jordan and a new government in Iraq...
Two years later, he and Perle signed an open letter to President Bill Clinton calling for the United States to work with Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress (INC) to oust Saddam Hussein.
This all falls together quite nicely. Well disgustingly for humanity, but nicely as far as support for motive and ability. I'm surprised that the article did not mention Perle, though obviously Feith was the man that would have been instrumental.
I also like the link to Berlusconi. The timing, motive, and ability also make sense there.
I've certainly never heard a conservative allege such a thing.
Maybe not the conservative press, but there were some pretty stand up conservatives knocking some of these guys and what they were doing. In the run up to the 2004 election at least two had books out damning operations of this administration.
Heheheh, and here is a gem...
One such critic is United States Army General Tommy Franks, who, according to Bob Woodward's 2004 Plan of Attack, described Feith as the "fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth" (p.281). [5][6]. In his biography, American Soldier, Tommy Franks clarified the context of this phrase by stating that he was talking to his subordinates who were upset with Feith and he said that his actual words were 'word is going around that Feith is the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth'; thus, he says he was reporting what he heard about Feith rather than expressing his own personal opinion. In 2005, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, publicly stated he could "testify to" Franks' comment and added "Seldom in my life have I met a dumber man." [7]
And lest anyone forget...
In May 2005 one of Feith's top lieutenants, Larry Franklin, an analyst and Iran specialist, was charged with espionage by the FBI regarding the ongoing AIPAC espionage scandal.
So let's see, Feith drops out right before one of his lieutenants gets charged for engaging in espionage for Israel (essentially) and Feith is not a party to that? This could easily be part of the connection to the Niger documents as well.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by berberry, posted 10-31-2005 9:47 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by berberry, posted 11-03-2005 3:31 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 221 of 271 (256270)
11-02-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by FliesOnly
08-04-2005 10:43 AM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Look, Tal, I've said this repeatedly: Ignore the legalities of what Rove did...whether or not he committed a crime is not for you or I to decide...Fitzgerald will make that determination.
You'll note lottie dotty nobody was charged with outing a CIA agent.
. How can that be, when here we have a case where a senior member of the White House Staff released information from a classified document that resulted in a CIA opperative being outed, and our President does nothing?
Evidence? What classified document? What CIA agent was outed?
But as Crashfrog has already pointed out...that was true.
Source? It was false, and the report was retracted. If it were true, well we'd see it all over the front page...again.
The funny thing about that particular situation is that the point of the story got lost, and to this day has not really been addressed.
Yes, ignore that little item called...forgery.
Let me put this to rest...again. Geore W. Bush was never reported AWOL. I work at the United States Army Deserter Information Point. I have access to every file going back to the Korean War.
But don't let facts get in the way of your logic.
Remeber Tal, it was Kerry the volunteered and actually served in Vietnam, not our current President (or Vice President, or Sect of Defense, or...)
Or Bill Clinton, or Al Gore...oh they hever even served in the military..thats right.
Seriously Tal, he has got to be one of the most unethical people currently in politics.
Nah, it only seems that way because he runs political rings around the democrats. I would put Sandy Burglar and the Clintons a little higher up on the unethical list.

"Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by FliesOnly, posted 08-04-2005 10:43 AM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2005 2:31 PM Tal has replied
 Message 224 by FliesOnly, posted 11-02-2005 3:05 PM Tal has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 222 of 271 (256277)
11-02-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Tal
11-02-2005 2:15 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
You'll note lottie dotty nobody was charged with outing a CIA agent.
Not yet. Didn't you read the indictment? Or listen to Fitz's speech? He literally said that Libby's obstruction has prevented the proper investigation of the situation within the time period of that specific grand jury.
Well, hence the indictment of Libby; hence Fitz getting time with another grand jury. You don't think that Libby is going to choose jail time over rolling on Cheney and Rove, do you? He's got a wife and kid. Do you really think his loyalty to his job and former employers extends as far as 30 years in prison?
What CIA agent was outed?
Valerie Plame, who, at the time, was an employee not of the Directorate of Intelligence - the non-covert branch - but the Directorate of Operations.
You know, the secret one. The one who's employees are classified operatives. (Hence the name.)
Source?
The Deparrtment of Justice's own investigation.
It was false, and the report was retracted.
No. The report was retracted because the source wasn't confident in what he had read.
But it turned out that the source was correct; Newsweek was right to retract their story, but they did not retract it because it turned out to be false. They retracted because they couldn't be sure it was true. As it turned out, they were right the first time.
If it were true, well we'd see it all over the front page...again.
It was all over the front page. Where the hell were you?
Let me put this to rest...again. Geore W. Bush was never reported AWOL.
Nobdy ever said he had been. But let's be absolutely clear. He did not meet his service obligations. He signed an affidavit pledging to report to a NatGuard outfit in Mass., and he never did. He had an obligation that he did not meet, and it was only the fact that his father was a Congressman and a war hero that prevented negative consequences in that regard.
Now, as for the memos, four things are true:
1) The memos were never proven to be forgeries.
2) Nobody was ever proven to have forged them.
3) The information they contained was verified by third parties who would know - Bush's commanders and their secretaries.
4) Even without the disputed memos, there was more than enough evidence to prove that Bush did not meet his obligations.
But don't let facts get in the way of your logic.
Surgeon, heal thyself. You haven't posted a single fact that turned out to be true in any thread where you've tried to defend Bush or attack his opposition.
Or Bill Clinton, or Al Gore...oh they hever even served in the military..thats right.
Wrong again. Al Gore served in the Army from August 1969 to May 1971. Do a little homework next time. Took me all of 2 seconds to look that up.
I would put Sandy Burglar and the Clintons a little higher up on the unethical list.
When Clinton lied, some semen dried. When the Bush administration lied, people died. But, hey, we all have our own ethical calculus. Good to know that you consider adultery worse than murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Tal, posted 11-02-2005 2:15 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tal, posted 11-02-2005 2:42 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 223 of 271 (256280)
11-02-2005 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by crashfrog
11-02-2005 2:31 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
1 thing at a time.
The Deparrtment of Justice's own investigation.
Here's a Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News Videos on the Koran Flushing story.
NEW YORK ” Newsweek on Monday retracted a story alleging interrogators at Guantanamo flushed the Koran down a toilet in front of detainees.
"Based on what we know now, we are retracting our original story that an internal military investigation had uncovered Koran abuse at Guantanamo Bay," editor Mark Whitaker (search) said in statement released Monday evening
Your source? Link please. You can't just get away with "The Justice Dept."

"Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2005 2:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2005 3:18 PM Tal has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 224 of 271 (256286)
11-02-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Tal
11-02-2005 2:15 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Tal writes:
You'll note lottie dotty nobody was charged with outing a CIA agent.
Golly, then I guess that everything Scooter did was ok by your standards. And let's not forget that Fitzgerald is still investigating.
Tal writes:
Evidence? What classified document? What CIA agent was outed?
You need to get out more often. Where did Scooter, and Rove, and Cheney get the name?
Tal writes:
Source? It was false, and the report was retracted. If it were true, well we'd see it all over the front page...again.
Actually, my understanding is not that the story was untrue, but rather cannot be verified. Also, it may have been that the soldier peed on the Koran, not that he flushed it down a toilet. But what’s you point?
FliesOnly writes:
Remember Tal, it was Kerry the volunteered and actually served in Vietnam, not our current President (or Vice President, or Sect of Defense, or...)
Tal writes:
Or Bill Clinton, or Al Gore...oh they hever even served in the military..thats right.
And your point? My point in the above quote was to tell you to kiss my ass in regards to your bull shit about the left hating the military. As typical for you however, you avoid the point.
Tal writes:
Yes, ignore that little item called...forgery.
Let me put this to rest...again. Geore W. Bush was never reported AWOL. I work at the United States Army Deserter Information Point. I have access to every file going back to the Korean War.
But don't let facts get in the way of your logic.
No, I did not ignore the forgery. It was something that pissed me off and people paid for it. However, the underlying question has never been answered. Wait...all seeing, all knowing Tal has answered it. Thanks Tal...I completely trust you on this one. But then again I'm not so sure that what was being asked was whether or not he was reported AWOL. As a matter of fact...I think that that was kind of the point.
Tal writes:
Nah, it only seems that way because he runs political rings around the democrats.
Why bother.
But, boy Tal, it must be nice to also completely lack any ethics whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Tal, posted 11-02-2005 2:15 PM Tal has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 225 of 271 (256289)
11-02-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tal
11-02-2005 2:42 PM


Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Which confirms exactly what I just told you.
quote:
In the apology, Whitaker said that its lone source for a story accusing U.S. interrogators of flushing the Koran (search) down the toilet to rattle a detainee later said he could not recall where information about the alleged incident came from.
Not because the story was wrong or false, but because the source couldn't be certain.
Now, here's the US government's own investigation of the subject:
quote:
The U.S. military for the first time on Friday detailed how jailers at Guantanamo mishandled the Koran, including a case in which a guard's urine splashed through a vent onto the Islamic holy book and others in which it was kicked, stepped on and soaked in water.
Hood said there were four additional incidents of "alleged mishandling" of the Koran that "we cannot determine conclusively if they actually happened." These involved prisoners' complaints that jailers kicked and put a foot on the Koran, threw it into a bag of wet towels, and told a detainee the book "belonged in the toilet."
No webpage found at provided URL: http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-6-3/29288.html
Sorry, shouldn't have said "Department of Justice." I was remembering this from May, after all, and I got the government agency wrong. My apologies.
At any rate, other organizations like the ACLU and the Red Cross have independantly collected similar accusations of Koran mishandling and flushing, and indeed, a lawsuit is progressing against the US government and top officials for acts of Koran flushing and desicration. Moreover there's over 20 independant, seperate reports by former detainees of these institutions of Koran flushing. And keep in mind that these people were released by the government.
So one of two things is true. These could be the fabrications of persons following explicit instructions in the al-Queda manual to invent this kind of thing. But then that means that the government is releasing members of al-Queda. Do you really think they're doing that? The only reasonable alternative is that these statements by these former detainees are credible, and that they really happened.
And, of course, there's all those reports of detainees supposedly defacing their own Korans, though rarely is any motivation for them to do so given. Supposedly, we're supposed to believe that literally every single proven instance of Koran flushing occured when a detainee, for no explainable reason, flushed their own Koran, and then decided to lie about it.
Uh-huh. Well, I'm sure that's enough to convince you, Tal - you'll believe anything the government tells you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Tal, posted 11-02-2005 2:42 PM Tal has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024