Good Employee/Bad Employee?

It looks worser and worser for Jon's employer, if we believe what he says about the people he hires and the management skills he displays. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

I have been supervising people for 15 years in libraryland, which translates to hundreds of individuals, mainly students. I have one absolute rule, the customer comes first.That means a maximum of service, no question goes unanswered and no request goes unfulfilled if at all possible. On rare occasions where we lack the resources, then we must suggest a potential solution available elsewhere. It means no waiting for anything period, if humanly possible.I believe that almost no one is untrainable, given enough time and attention. Some are simply slower on the uptake than others. Also, not everyone has the same skills. Some people are simply better adapted to certain tasks than others, it is simply a matter of fitting the person to the task when possible.When I say almost however, I mean there is the rare exception. I have encountered a few individuals that actually were completely untrainable because of personal flaws. The worst flaw an employer can encounter is the employee that has nothing to learn because they believe they already have all knowledge needed to perform the job to their own definition of perfection. I have been forced to get rid of a few people, even those with graduate degrees, because they were too superior to others to bother to learn anything, or indeed treat people with the respect that everyone deserves.But then again, I work for a college, and therefore the county and state government, so maybe none of this applies to private industry.

Let me lay it down here. We are talking (or should be talking) about good employees vs. bad employees. My question to you is thus: Do you think an employee who requires extra (essentially "pay") to perform a task which is already part of the job for which they are recieving a previously agreed amount of pay is a good employee, or a bad employee?That's simply all this is about. Whether it's management's job to fix such a problem or to look for solutions to bad employees or this or that... doesn't matter, that's not the topic of this thread. Only what makes a good employee vs. what makes a bad employee.I'd say what I mentioned above makes a bad employee, do you disagree?J0N

I agree... this makes the worst of employees. I think that when I think of people who are bad employees, this is one thing I think of. They always seem to have this sense of specialness because they think they are so damned great. And then they complain when they don't get the promotion or the pay raise.Promotions are like tips. If you think you deserve them, then you don't.Just throwing my 2 cents back at ya. J0N

Wo wo wo... let's back it up a little here! I'm not a General Manager, by far. And I have no business in the hiring process.. in fact, I think I expressed that earlier.I hope you delete or edit that so people don't start getting misconceptions.J0N

I noticed this is the second time you mentioned the "employee, not employer" as topic. What I think you have failed to see, after many posts pointing to it, is that, many times, a "good" employee is attached to a "good" employer. In the first few years of my customer service experiences I worked for companies who could care less about their employees and only cared a fraction more for the product they were selling. They put out crappy products for mass consumption and gave their employees almost no motivation to want to do a good job. In short, I worked for chain restaurants. I would think that fast food places are even worse, because (in most cases) they are paid MUCH less than servers when you factor in tips and the paltry "raises" that are doled out are laughable at best.I can see where schraf is coming from with the "prize" gimmick and I believe that is only necessary when the company doesn't pay well and/or doesn't really offer any other motivation to do well.I remember clearly the day I got a job at a restaurant that actually cared to put out a quality product and treated its employees like gold. It was a chef owned restaurant and therein lied the difference. It had been open for almost 10 successful years when I came onboard and the original investors were more then happy. I actually got a fully paid training period ($10/hour plus TONS of free food everyday - so I could actually sample what I would be selling and not just recite regurgitated definitions) where I learned everything about the food and wine we served, got to know the staff AND the owners AND was introduced to the "regulars" at every opportunity. I had always done a good job anywhere I worked, but here I actually CARED about the establishment I was working for and that made my own tips and the bottom line of the restaurant go up. The fact that the owners cared enough about their product to give me all the knowledge and confidence necessary to sell it made all the difference in the world. The fact that I could speak in good confidence that the food I was serving was quality stuff and I wanted to keep up the reputation of the place was all due to the owners/management. I didn't need to trick people into parting from their money because I knew they would be getting exactly what I sold them on. Oh and, if you can imagine it, we were not talked down to, screamed at or belittled if we did someting wrong. Most of the time we knew exactly what we did wrong (because we were given the training to know how to do it right) and the management actually discussed the problems with us privately and in ways that made us feel like human beings and not malfunctioning robots or 5-year-olds. The restaurant is still in business and are quite comfortably in the black and their turnover rate is VERY low (most people who leave either move or move on to other careers).Some companies know that they can put out a cheap, sub-par product and people will buy it. It is usually the people who work for companies like them, though. If you pay your employees well (I know I used a restaurant analogy, but I believe it is equitable because increased happiness, confidence and honestly caring customer service = more $$$ for them), then they will want to sell your product more (more $$$ for you) and they will be able to buy the product at the increased prices that come with paying a living wage.You can go on thinking that this person in your OP is a dead-beat employee, but until you recognize that they don't give a shit because the company doesn't give a shit about them, you will continue being bitter. I also think that management in places like your "Pizza Ranch" are paid obscenely low wages and also do not care all that much. Are they "bad" employees, too? Possibly, but then we have to go higher and higher up the chain. However, you only seem focused on the poverty wage employee who won't answer the god-damned phones.P.S. During my experience in that restaurant I always felt I deserved the tips AND I got them. All because I was given the tools that I needed to feel I deserved the reward for implementing them.

WRONG! If the company doesn't pay well, then you don't take the job! If the company offers $6.15/hour to do work which includes answering the phones, and you take that job and then refuse to answer the phones or even learn, who's fault is that? The employee and employer both made a promise to one another that the employee would do work (all work, including phones) in exchange for $6.15 an hour. If the employee decides that he/she doesn't want to do part of that work or learn how to do part of that work, then who's breaking the promise? I don't think the company's recalculating the wage to reflect the limited amount of work being done by the employee. Nope, the employer still pays $6.15/hour to an employee who's broken their promise. At want point did I say I didn't get trained in at full pay? I did. When did I say I didn't get tons of free food? I do, not to mention free meals on my break (all I can eat buffet), which is a PAID break nonetheless. Great perks I'd say. I know everytihng about the food we serve (no alcohol at Pizza Ranch, frequent complaint by some customers ). I know the staff. AND (since you like that word so much) I DO know the owners. They are in the restaurant working their asses off every single fucking night... not managing only... but bussing tables, vacuuming floors, even... even... cleaning broasters YUCK! I also DO care about the reputation of my business. Do you think I'm walking around as a pizza for Halloween because I don't!? I tell everyone about how great the place is, and how fun it is to work for them! Don't smack the management. They care greatly. Many come in on their days off, not because they are called in, but just because they honestly care to see how the business is doing. They try to keep down food costs and what not, as if they themsleves had a stake in the profit. The management at our "Pizza Ranch" is very good compared to most. I've heard many people complain of the management in other places, but no one ever complains of the management at our "Pizza Ranch." And yes, dispite the fact that they are so good, they are more lowly paid than most. As the Pizza Ranch is a starting business, all its employees make less than what they could elsewhere. Why do they still stick around? Could it be that the Pizza Ranch is actually a GREAT company to work with? Well, I think that just might be it .As for the dead-beatness of that employee. She has her options, like I've said above. If she feels like she's being treated like shit, then she can quit. Remember, the agreement was $x.xx for an amount of work. She's letting down on her side of the agreement, she's the one in the wrong. If she thinks "man, they treat me like shit here", then the solution is to quit, not to do a crappy job. Because once you start doing a shitty job, then you are every bit deserving of shitty treatment, especially if you do a crappy job out of spite! Here's another wrong assumption you've made. Our product is NOT sub-par! In fact, most people I know who have the option between our chicken and that of KFC, choose our chicken. It's more popular than our pizzas! .Oh, and I've been to many restaurants where even the people who get tips do shitty work! Most likely because they feel that they will get tips no matter what. Well, guess who doesn't give out tips quite that easily? More? Nah, I'll save it for later J0N

A pizza for halloween? CK is right about good/bad customer service. At my grocery store, we are always hounded about giving what they call Superior Customer Service.

We have to take people to the item rather than just tell them where it is.

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we always thank by last name and offer carryout assistance.

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we are graded for showing full attentiveness and not to be talking to each other.

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Edited by Phat, : expand upon original idea

ah but the rub is that (the US especially) many of the jobs being created are low-paid, low-skilled and the employee CAN know everything to know about the job within hours of starting it.This seems to have morphed into a parallel discussion to the original question and now seems to be "good customer service/bad customer service".Edited by CK, : No reason given.

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But then again, I work for a college, and therefore the county and state government, so maybe none of this applies to private industry.

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Dunno - is it much like the UK where universities are top heavy with people doing vague no-jobs and sitting around in offices while doing those non-jobs.

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Let me lay it down here. We are talking (or should be talking) about good employees vs. bad employees. My question to you is thus: Do you think an employee who requires extra (essentially "pay") to perform a task which is already part of the job for which they are recieving a previously agreed amount of pay is a good employee, or a bad employee?

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If it was made very clear, up front, that a certain task was going to be a part of their responsibilities, they were well-trained in exactly when and exactly how they were to do this task, were given clear expectations for a timeline for how long it should take to become competent at this task, and adequate supervision and support by a trainer all along the way, then I would say that you have a problem with that employee regarding that specific task.Is this what has happened in your workplace?

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That's simply all this is about. Whether it's management's job to fix such a problem or to look for solutions to bad employees or this or that... doesn't matter, that's not the topic of this thread. Only what makes a good employee vs. what makes a bad employee.

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I would say that, all other things being equal, an employee is only as good as their training, support, and the company culture.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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I can see where schraf is coming from with the "prize" gimmick and I believe that is only necessary when the company doesn't pay well and/or doesn't really offer any other motivation to do well.

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Actually, in my experience it is companies that already do a good job attracting great employees with good compensation and great work environments and cultures that tend to constantly offer such games and contests.They have already figured out that carrots work much better than sticks.

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I had always done a good job anywhere I worked, but here I actually CARED about the establishment I was working for and that made my own tips and the bottom line of the restaurant go up.

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Right.Respect and high integrity in an employer attracts the same in employees.Why would anybody work hard for Jon when they can all tell he thinks they are a bunch of deadbeats?

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If the company doesn't pay well, then you don't take the job!

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Oh, really? Lots of high paying jobs out there, do you think, for people with little to no experience in the working world?

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If the employee decides that he/she doesn't want to do part of that work or learn how to do part of that work, then who's breaking the promise?

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I am getting sick of hearing you bitch about the employees you supervise when you are clearly not interested in solving the mangement problem.

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I tell everyone about how great the place is, and how fun it is to work for them!

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Nothing you've said in this thread indicates that you have any sort of enjoyment of your job.You seem to have the deepest disdain for your coworkers.

So, nowo it's the employer's fault for people who barely have high school diplomas, eh? I could say the same about your claim that management is responsible for every shitty employee. Of course, if you're that sick of it, you could always stop replying... Actually out of the large number of people who are employeed where I work, I dislike only about one or two. And not as people, but only for the fact that they suck at their job.J0NEdited by Jon of the Future, : Typo

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I could say the same about your claim that management is responsible for every shitty employee.

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Please quote where I said or implied that or retract.

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Actually out of the large number of people who are employeed where I work, I dislike only about one or two. And not as people, but only for the fact that they suck at their job.

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Then why did you refer to the lot of them as "deadbeats"?And it's not about "liking" them. It's about respecting them.I don't think you do.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.