"Imagine no religion..."

“ Imagine No Religion . . It’s easy if you try.”No more religion in the world would be impossible, of course, but it would be interesting. Instead of religion to guide the people along, they would need to reason for themselves and make decisions on a different basis”one that didn’t pit belief systems against each other in a succession of wars, which are proven to be endless. And religion sucks money from the pockets of its victims, too, who can scarcely afford it. But don’t tell them they can’t buy their way to heaven. Don’t tell them that Jesus is a bigger fraud than even Mohammed (or you, like Rushdie, could get a contract sent out on your life). Don’t tell them that more people have suffered and died in this world for the sake of religion than any other cause.Imagine no religion. Imagine a time when a POTUS candidate need not declare his/her belief if God to get elected. What a wonderful world that would be! Furthermore, in a world without religion there would be no need for atheism, and no need for all that fear and loathing about what happens to you after you die. Oh, what a wonderful world it would be! No more stress, no more disease, no more poverty, no more corruption of the little children . I propose a thread to imagine what would be possible in a world without religion.”HM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

A large amount of the population would have to start thinking for themselves.People would have to do a bit of intellectual work to discover the best way through life.Many arguments about which 'truth' is the 'real' truth would end.

No more EvC forums. How you imagine lack of religion would achieve all that, I don't know. If you'd said "less" instead of "no more" I might be able to help you argue the case.

Yes, I have difficulty seeing that too. No more religion doesn't mean no more value system. And some sort of value system would still undergird ethical, political and economic decisions like whether to go to war in Iraq and what kind of welfare system (if any) to support.

So true! I have also wondered about the distribution of wealth. Without religion to pick the pockets of the poor, they might not be so poor anymore.The one thing that would happen in a world without religion would be a huge rush to fill the vacuum left by the dissolution of all the souls. In their places I would expect a bud to grow and flower in the name of The Golden Rule, which was always nipped in its formative stage by religio-politics.”HM

And do you suppose that religion helps to improve our value system that serves to "undergrid ethical, political and economic decisions"? If so, how?”HMEdited by Hoot Mon, : addressed wrong poster

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"Vegetarian": An old Indian word for "bad hunter." ”Sarah Palin's bumper sticker

I'm not so sure. I think religion is an excuse for poor behaviour in its followers. I don't think a world without superstion would be any more ethical.However people would have to take responsibility for their actions.What's the Golden Rule?

It's the first rule of karmic law”Don't do anything to anyone else you wouldn't want done to yourself”the rule the Christians claim to be their own. (But try looking it up in the Holy Bible.)”HM

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"Vegetarian": An old Indian word for "bad hunter." ”Sarah Palin's bumper sticker

No, I don't think so. But I can't see a lack of religion bringing about agreement between say libertarians and socialists on the role of government. There would still be sharp disagreement in the US over whether or not to institute universal medicare, for example. Or whether to use the tax system as an instrument of wealth redistribution.

Well, for starters, there would be no need to continue the religious wars extending from the days of Canaan up through the Crusades and on to post-WWII Zionism. Take that out of the historical equation and what do you have left? What you have left is a whole lot of money to fund universal medicare and other social programs.America was founded not on religious principles but on the separation of religious principles from state principles. In effect, America sought to "Imagine no religion." And it's been an uphill struggle ever since to keep religion out of politics. It's like trying to keep rats out of a dumpster.”HM

What you don't have is agreement that you should fund social programs. It is neither lack of money nor religious opposition that is preventing spending on social programs now. And, while a religious card may be played to help justify a war over oil, we all know the real reason is oil and if religion is not around to justify it, then some non-religious reason will be found.The alternative would be for the politicians to be honest about their realpolitik. Not an attractive option for most politicians. Actually, that is incorrect. It was founded on the separation of religious institutions from state institutions, a very different matter from separating religion and politics. In fact, it was quite some time before even the institutional separation was applied at the state as well as the federal level.

But I blame our thirst for oil on the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. Max Weber made it clear, at least to me, that today's capitalism is an outgrowth of the Protestant religion: to prove you are one of the electi you need to be financial successful. In other words, if God made you rich then that is proof that He has chosen you as member of His favored clutch.And there you go, right back to religion. I may have to concede to you on that point.”HYM

Yes, I think Weber is quite right on that point. Calvin was the first Christian theologian to justify charging interest on a loan, and without that, capitalism could not really have got off the ground.Of course, proving--to yourself or anyone else--that you are one of the elect, is contrary to the whole notion of predestination, but a natural human instinct, nonetheless.I guess what it comes down to for me is whether one ties "religion" to a God-concept. In terms of social and economic organization, of decisions over war and peace, capitalism or socialism or the mixed version of the welfare state, I don't think it makes any difference whether there is or is not an overt appeal to God. The powers-that-be have no more difficulty justifying themselves in terms of atheistic Marxism than in terms of Calvinistic capitalism or feudalistic Catholicism.If you include non-theistic ideologies under the rubric of "religion" that's a different kettle of fish. Would the quasi-religion of patriotism or the glorification of militarism disappear if we simply did away with theistic religion? I think not.But can we imagine not only no religion in terms of communities of worship, but also no religion in terms of political loyalties and economic ideologies.Now, that's a real challenge.

gluadys, do you think The Golden Rule is a religious admonition?”HM