On the verge of a break-through

RR, you've made lots of strawmans concerning my own position. Can you stop telling me what I am saying.Example;You said, "You've said more than that. You've pushed that definition to everyone, even those that do not believe in God."I really must insist that you show me how I done this, because it's most unfair if yuo are going to say I have done things, which the readers will the assume I have done.My only position is that I am not obliged/will not condone gay activity.Other people can do what they want, but I will not personally, observe any kind of activity I deem as against the will of God, possibly against it. I also think believers should take that position.We don't have to be involved, but if someone asks me the question, they have to be aware that my answer will be one that goes along with the scriptures of the New Testament, rather than pleasing them, because of a fear of a rejection of my belief system.An example would be this;A man wants to follow God, but God says to give up his riches. The man doesn't want to follow because he won't give them up. Would God then turn around and say, "okay, keep the riches". Why ofcourse he wouldn't.

You've done that because you feel you are giving into men, or the world if you do. But this is not the case. You are not giving into men if you allow this to happen.You can be against it, and yet allow it to happen. It only matters what is in your heart.Jesus tells us to run from sexual imorality, not pour out God's wrath on people who don't. It's our choice, a free choice.If you are against it, and voice an opinion to that effect, then you are pushing your religious morals on the rest of us, and not just with your mouth, with the law.Many sins are perfectly legal, so there is no justification in making same-sex marriage illegal solely because it is a sin. If your going to be against it, because it is sin, then you must be against many other things as well, and then force that opinion/judgement on others.I am not debating with you here if it is a sin or not. There is no doubt in my mind that it is a sin. But that's my opinion, and how I choose to look at it. Not only do I think it is a sin, but I think it is wrong from a secular stand-point. Maybe that's from ignorance, but it is how I feel. Even still, there is a conflict if I go against it. I sacrifice my own freedom to dis-allow it.You haven't provided two things for me yet.1 Secular reasoning why it should not be allowed. (and if you can't think of one, then let us know)
2 Where in the bible (NT) that it shows that we should push our religious views on the government. Where does Jesus teach us to be some kind of religious police? Did Jesus punish anyone for their sins while He was here? That depends. God may very well turn around and say keep the riches. If the man admits that he cannot give them up by his own will, and asks for forgiveness. However, he will hinder his relationship with God, and store up less treasures in heaven.It's all relative. To be a fair and impartial judge of a situation like that, we would have to know all the variables, and see into the rich man's heart. Only God could do that, so it is foolish to speculate on it.Let me ask you, would God forgive a murderer if he asks for forgiveness? Isn't the murderers secular punishment, and Godly punishment going to be 2 different things? The murderer may pay more for his sins here on earth, than he would in the spiritual world. Or he may not, it depends on his heart.Why do people murder?Why are people gay?Why do people drink too much?Why do men look at porno?

It's like this.Does two gay/lesbians in a commited relationship harm you in any manner (other than making you feel uncomforatable)?How does calling their commited relationship a 'marriage' harm your marriage?I would think such things as serial marriages, 55 hour marriages (a la Britany Spears), and people who have many divorces are a much bigger threat to 'marriage'.

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I don't care about pleasing men. If they're pissed because I won't say "oh yeah, be gay and prosper", then that's their problem, because I believe in God, not gay pride.

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So, what you seem to be saying is that God hates fags.Nice.

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What I was saying is that both actions are the result of the same drive.

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How so?

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Can you say that the Ukraine monster would have murdered those children, if he didn't have a sex drive?

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Correlation is not causation.

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I loathe rapists, pedophiles, serial killers, killers of babas.

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What do any of these have to do with two people (of the same gender) who are in love, and express that love sexually to their mutual joy?Ofcourse I loathe these things that exist in us. None of them would happen if people obeyed God and feared God's justice that will come upon them for doing wicked things.

double postEdited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

No. I don't know if it does or doesn't, I don't care. They always have been. Seems like marriage is a joke these days.

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You know what, I wish I knew why I "hated" to look at it too. That bothers me about myself. I probably shouldn't have used the word hate, but dislike.

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Well, that's pretty much what I meant.I think it is entirely a cultural thing, rat. It's what you're used to and what our culture has taught you about what you should and shouldn't "like" or "mind".

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IMHO, it's Argumentum ad nauseam for your own ideology, because you're just asserting that your own ideology is correct, via much repetition.

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Of course, this that you accuse jar of doing, you are also doing.

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Since I am a believer in the NT, then as a believer in the NT, I am allowed to claim it is [my God's] law/rule, which is the reason why I, from my theological perspective, am not obliged to voice praise/confirmation for gay activity.

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So, can I also assume that you believe that women have no place as pastors in the church, and shouldn't wear fancy clothes or jewelry, and in general, you believe that women have inferior judgement compared to men?

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Seems like marriage is a joke these days.

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Only to some, but certainly not to most, at least in the US.It seems that that whole "over half of all marriages end in divorce" statistic is misleading.Over 70% of all first marriages don't end in divorce.There is a small group of people who get married and divorced in a "serial" manner (i.e. over and over) who are skewing the statistic up to the "over 50%".

I could write a book on what people think I am saying.Can we stick to what I actually have said?Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Nothing. You're forgetting that it was only you who said I was equating this with such people. I was infact adressing the problem of lust overall.You're trying to get me to defend a gay-hate position I haven't partaken in. Whereas I have infact said that the issue involves God, and people, in general. NOT any specific group.So, a partnership of the same gender is also under fornication, as the NT describes. That's the only problem. Because they're gay doesn't mean they're not fornicators like the straight people. The only difference is that the bible condones straight marriage but doesn't condone gay marriage, so there seems to be only one option, apparently; that a gay person has no righteouss way of partaking of gay acts, technically, or atleast that is what the bible implies.This is all hypothetical. I am only inferring from the information I have got.Some things I have NOT concluded:That gay marriage is a sin.
That gay marriage is unacceptable to God
That gay marriage is acceptable to God.
That gay marriage isn't a sin.Just treat mike like a logic puzzle. The guy's fruity about specifics.I am only working from the possibility that it is sinful, therefore witholding judgement. To condone/condemn, would be to judge. I have done neither.But I feel that secularist groups such as yourselves, put pressure on people such as me, to condone gay activity/marriage etc..

How did you know that? Was it a lucky guess? It's true that if I condoned gays personally, I'd feel I was giving into the world/nature. I am usually cynical about any world-rules, because man as a subjectivite, creates a law today, against that which was righteouss yesterday.So then, if man's rules are fletting and change, then how can they be worth anything?I can understand rules which haven't changed, such as "do no murder", because they only are correct because they are based on what God said. I only need to answer if I am arguing it should not be allowed. I only need to answer if I am arguing from such a position.I think you're playing righteouss believer versus sinful believer here a bit, RR. But I am not going to become the bad guy like the group dearly wants me to.They're just furious because I have found a reasonable way to not condone gays on personal terms. haha.If you do have the spirit of truth, tell me what I am honestly feeling about gays.

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I could write a book on what people think I am saying.

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Well, if this is the impression you are giving...

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Can we stick to what I actually have said?

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Sure.You wrote:

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I don't care about pleasing men. If they're pissed because I won't say "oh yeah, be gay and prosper", then that's their problem, because I believe in God, not gay pride.

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You seem to be saying that God disapproves of gays, and in fact considers being gay "shameful" (the opposite of pride).How is that so different from "God hates fags"?

I admitt my statement was provocative, but it was nevertheless worded in a fashion that cannot allow anyone to infer much other than the fact I have put provocative spin on it.IOW, I observe God's sayings rather than pleasing cultural fads/political correctness.