On the verge of a break-through

Hundreds of gay couples trying to raise children are having their families torn apart every year because they can't get involved in any kind of marriage-like privileged union.And you think that situation should continue just so that the meaning of a word won't change? People who hold those views aren't very good people, I suspect.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.Edited by crashfrog, : Changed the focus after understanding that RGB might be kidding.

I am using "mostly" religious justification, or "my interpretation of the bible, and my faith" to justify my being for same sex marraige in our secular arena.There is some secular reasoning, mostly that I do not want to be a bigot, or a hypocrite. Hence the battle of principals in my mind.But I think from a Christian stand point, I must let it happen. Give due to ceaser what is due to him. Let God do the judging, and stand behind what it is that gives us our freedom to be whoever we want to be.I swear, this is not easy.

I don't think it's fair what you are doing. You realilze what you are demonstrating to me?

Are you supporting the position that people should be forced into gay marriages that they do not want, even if they're already married or not gay or both? No?Then you're not forcing anything on anybody. To force someone is to compel them to take an action against their will. But letting someone do something isn't taking an action, so preventing someone from interfering with the actions of another isn't forcing them to do anything.It's incoherent to suggest that being in favor of people getting gay marriages if they want them forces something on anybody. It doesn't make any sense, at least not if words have meanings.

Ignore rgb. Someday, someone is going to send him an e-mail with multiple attachments and a bcc to his wife.Edited by Parasomnium, : Inserted quote.

So I guesss I am only forcing my religious views on myself then, lol.Or I am forcing my religious views on the rest of the nation that is against it.

wife?

riverrat writes

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I don't think it's fair what you are doing. You realilze what you are demonstrating to me?

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Nothing I have said is original. As a matter of fact, I plagarized some of it from your posts.

Sorry, I never said that. Yes, it is, it's all lies. How can you have a intelligent debate when you don't speak truths?From what you have told me in chat, to now, are 2 very different things. I can't take you seriously on anything you say from here on out. Nobody else should either.

I don't look at this situation as something that concerns us. It concerns the world. IMHO, we will stay out of it but we're not obliged to endorse what God calls sin. But I would say that this doesn't mean believers such as I and you, are obliged to endorse homosexual behaviour.There might be a worldly law that says it is fine, and indeed, God has gave us freewill, but does that then mean that we should preach that desire should simply be fulfilled? Well then, that would have to include any fleshly desire. But this dis-regards the function of nature, which has proven the purpose of the desire.So if the Ukraine monster has a desire to murder because it gives him a hard-on, are we to say, "oh - that's fine, you're free". No. What we are to say is that freewill is there so that every single person will be held accountable to the decisions they make.That that pathetic person would actually murder a child to satisfy his hard-on, is evidence that desire can be a sickeningly wicked and evil thing.By all means we are free. Free indeed! And therefore truly responsible and accountable for those choices we make.Likewise, straight and gays have desires, but their hands are not forced, and they are all told that sex has a specific purpose, and we are therefore guilty of being obedient to the flesh rather than God.To me, the bible is clear, that all are guilty. That is all straight and gay people are fornicators. So let's not pretend we're in one boat and the gays are in another. But let's not also pretend that we endorse gays. For even if their nature made them gay, God never told us to obey our nature, for nature is where sin comes from. It is only marriage which sanctifies and cleanses the desire, that it is there for a purpose. But a gay's purpose is one of gratification, and obviously God won't sanctify such a thing.Now all of this desire is from the selfish evil flesh, and we know it's nature; that it would murder to gratify. Therefore we are guilty of obeying our evil selfish genes.But do we then endorse fornication, and believe that it is "fine" to do what God says to not do. Why no, ofcourse not. Rather we say all are free, and that we are not going to endorse sin, but we are going to state that all are guilty of it. The path is to then desire to not sin, if we know the functional purpose. few of us are able. But only the gay person who does not act out fornication, would be hypothetically guiltless, because he was never forced to obey his fleshly nature which is evil and selfish.

By that same reasoning, non-procreative sex within marriage should also be a sin similar to what strict Catholicism believes. If my wife and I have sex with a condom on then the purpose is only "one of gratification." So then I guess we fall into the same bucket as all the rest of the fornicators in the world according to you.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I am only saying that according to the scripture, and to a believer, only the marriage is sanctified for the purpose of procreation. Since the condomn came after the bible, I cannot answer the question. I wouldn't like to judge your situation.I can only speculate at best, that a gratifying motive would be hypothetically sinful I suppose, but that is dependent on my own ideology only;
the ideology is that I believe those versus in the NT show that the nature is the animal, and is not created by God, but only the spirit is. The earth brought forth lifeforms.It is impossible for us to justify sin, even as sinners. The desire of the nature is also responsible for rape etc, which means the desire itself, and it's nature, is willing to become any perverse wicked form, in order to fulfill it's selfish desire, according to evolution.Can you atleast see the problem for believers if we are asked to justify/condone something like this? It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's that we observe the perfect law of God as correct.

Such an ideology would not be based on the Bible as far as I know. I can think of no scripture, other than the OT story of God striking down someone for "pulling out", that describes non-procreative sex within marriage as fornication. Then again there was not really any such thing as non-procreative sex at the time except for some crude IUD and abortion methods.What the Bible DOES say though is that if you are married you should get jiggy with it often! I can't find the verse at the moment but there is somewhere it even says that you shouldn't deny your spouse for more than 2 weeks. It does so, and many argue, for the purpose of describing a healthy marriage relationship. Certainly, since a woman is only fertile for a small window of opportunity every month, a lot of the sex the Bible says you should do would be non-procreative.Really then, the argument that same-sex marriage is sinful because the sex acts are not "covered" by the exception of procreation can be argued has no real Biblical basis.That being said, there are OTHER reason in the NT that can be used in particular to argue that same-sex marrige is a sin.There is also plenty of justification in the NT to suggest that other things such as looking lustfully at someone is the equivalent to adultry. But you don't hear most (and I must clarify most because I know there are plenty of scary Christians that do) Christians saying we should repeal free speech so that we can censor all media/books/speech that may cause someone to think "bad" thoughts. Most Christians I feel would agree that THAT sin is not something we as men should codify into law because God is the one that judges the sins of the heart.There is no difference between that and same-sex marriage. If homosexuality really is a sin in the eyes of God then it is a sin of the heart, not against fellow man like theft, lying, and murder. It is therefore not up to us to judge homosexuals or restrict them from the other worldy benefits that heterosexual people enjoy. A free society does not go against God, people go against God. There is no reason Biblicaly or otherwise to disallow legal unions between same-sex couples.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

riverrat writes

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Sorry, I never said that.

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That bit is from your buddie Faith (and a little bit from iano).

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Yes, it is, it's all lies. How can you have a intelligent debate when you don't speak truths?

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Take a deep breath and go back and look at the past gay marriage threads.Because of my upbringing, I had been a racist, sexist, homophobe, anti-semantic, and just about every other type of hateful person. I don't deny that shameful part of me, and I remember exactly all my "arguments" I had for why all "those people" were bad people.

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From what you have told me in chat, to now, are 2 very different things. I can't take you seriously on anything you say from here on out. Nobody else should either.

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Have you ever heard of the term "preach of contract"?Riverrat, I see that in the past when you were against publicgay marriage you were uncomfortable with people who disagreed with you. And now that you have changed your mind, you are uncomfortable with people who disagree with you. Perhaps it's time you try to see this from the side of the debate you used to dislike?

Jazzns writes

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Such an ideology would not be based on the Bible as far as I know. I can think of no scripture, other than the OT story of God striking down someone for "pulling out", that describes non-procreative sex within marriage as fornication.

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Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Jesus never mentioned about specific sexual acts, but he did repeatedly referred to the sexual immoralities that were mentioned in the OT.