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Author Topic:   note: this discussion has turned for the better;read pgs/Where do the laws come from?
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 1 of 120 (357373)
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


suggested reading here: post 14, 23, and 32
Never considered,
How did laws of gravity and inertia, how did these laws come about.
How does a law come about?
How is it that the universe is governed?
Read these questions carefully before replying, they require much thought and (to add the controversy) have no answer from a Godless mindset.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : No reason given.
Edited by -messenjah of one, : subtitle
Edited by -messenjah of one, : unwanted smiley face

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Nutcase
Member (Idle past 5783 days)
Posts: 20
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 09-14-2006


Message 2 of 120 (357374)
10-18-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


Laws are mere human inventions.
However, if you are asking how did those laws come about to govern the universe, well, at speific periods of time after the Big Bang, as the universe cooled down, different forces started to appear. (I am definatly not an expert on BB, a lot of people on this forum can explain better).
Edited by Nutcase, : No reason given.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 3 of 120 (357380)
10-18-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Nutcase
10-18-2006 10:58 PM


quote:
different forces started to appear
Is this the best that can be done?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 120 (357382)
10-18-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Trump won
10-18-2006 11:28 PM


Better than "started to appear"
different forces started to appear
Is this the best that can be done?
No, there are many details buried in there that describe how the universe MUST unfold.
New, but very unfinished ideas, such as string theory are able to predict, apparently, much of the nature of the universe. However,they have a problem of an embarrasment of riches as they predict a very large number of different universes with different laws.
Maybe by as early as next year some experimental data will be available to start to sort out the competing ideas about how the universe came to be.
Oh, btw, this is all before the big bang. The big bang is not very contentious any more and not at the leading edge of research. It is old, boring stuff now.
I attended an interesting lecture by Roger Penrose a month or so ago. He was presenting an idea he has that is, as he emphasizes, highly speculative. He has grad students working on it now. It raise anew the idea of a cyclic universe. It started with his noticing of some funny things about the math describing the early universe and the universe of the very, very far future.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 120 (357384)
10-19-2006 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


How did laws of gravity and inertia, how did these laws come about.
Being inherent properties of the universe, how can they not exist?

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 6 of 120 (357386)
10-19-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


your bias is really quite overwhelming, MOO:
they require much thought and (to add the controversy) have no answer from a Godless mindset
how does gravity come about. well, gee, let's think about it for a moment. In this universe, denser objects attract to them less dense objects--that's the most basic principle, though it isn't quite adequate at describing how gravity works--that's where GR comes in handy.
Inertia is also similar. once a mass gets moving, unless friction acts upon it, it will get faster, and faster, and faster. (so long as I've got the right inertia. I could be mistaking this with something else, though similar).
These "laws" are nothing more than the natural consequences of the properties involved, such as mass, friction, volume, density, ad infinitum.

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 120 (357388)
10-19-2006 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


God created heaven and earth in 6 days and he rested on the 7th day. That's how the laws were created.
Happy?

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 120 (357396)
10-19-2006 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


No easy answers
How did laws of gravity and inertia, how did these laws come about?
How does a law come about?
How is it that the universe is governed?
There really is no simple way to answer this kind of a question with Newtonian precision. Poets, philosophers, theologians, apologists, atrophysicists, cosmologists and the like have all taken a stab at such a profound question. On the one hand, as Kuresu rather contemptuously relays, there are certainly some physical reasons for how something happens in the material universe. But, I think if we look only at something with blinders on we may miss the more laudable explanation.
You know, sometimes when I think of these deep, vexing questions, I have to first simplify it in basic, human terms. I automatically think of 'love'. If a study was conducted on the effects of the brain when an image of a loved one was displayed; using the most sophisticated machinery available, what would that say about the nature of love? Suppose I'm in a CAT scan and I'm wired to instruments that would test my systolic rate, diastolic rate, and rate of inspiration and exhalation, and a picture of my wife, daughter, and son were flashed before me. My pulse might quicken, and my breathing might become a bit laboured, and I might mildly perspire. The 3-dimensional images of my brain might light up in key regions of the brain associated with the euphoria of love.
Invariably, the question you might have guessed is coming next, is, "Do all of these effects equate to love? I mean, all the telltale signs are there. I know what I'm feeling and the people monitoring me can see a noticeable physiological change. But are these physical signs really the act of love or are they just a manifestation of something much deeper-- something that the extrapolations of science cannot detect? Is that grand feeling of love really just a mixture of chemicals and firing synapses to various regions of the brain? Or is there really something called 'spiritually' that transcends mere matter?
When thinking about the complexities of the physical universe, I have to recalibrate myself, if you will, with these kinds of questions. The point of the analogy is that while there are physical reasons--laws-- that happen for other physical reasons, is there not something more grand than even that? Is there not some teleological inference when noting the staggering level of perfection that makes you wonder how it could of all become what it is by some random, chaotic event in some primordial past?
The inescapable answer I recieve after serious contemplation, is yes. And we can call it an teleological or an ontological argument; or an anthropic principle, or whatever else seems worthy of such adulation. But whatever it is, for me, fortuitous is a word that I can no longer comprehend-- but oblation is. And I find myself reciting the words of King David. "The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God."
Worship may offer clues to the meaning of life.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : edit to add

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 9 of 120 (357398)
10-19-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


Read these questions carefully before replying, they require much thought and (to add the controversy) have no answer from a Godless mindset.
What on earth makes you think that?
"Laws" are the names for the regularities we observe in nature.
These regularities exist because there are only a finite number of different basic types of things of which the universe is composed. We can speak, for example of laws of electricity 'cos electrons are all exactly the same as one another.
There, that wan't too difficult, now, was it?

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 10 of 120 (357414)
10-19-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
10-18-2006 11:52 PM


Re: Better than "started to appear"
I'm actually really interested in string theory. Aren't they calling it "M" theory now?
quote:
much of the nature of the universe
The nature of the universe is basically determined on what we have; is DrAdequate's explanation correct?
Edited by -messenjah of one, : No reason given.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 11 of 120 (357416)
10-19-2006 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by kuresu
10-19-2006 12:17 AM


quote:
how does gravity come about. well, gee, let's think about it for a moment. In this universe, denser objects attract to them less dense objects--that's the most basic principle, though it isn't quite adequate at describing how gravity works--that's where GR comes in handy.
Inertia is also similar. once a mass gets moving, unless friction acts upon it, it will get faster, and faster, and faster. (so long as I've got the right inertia. I could be mistaking this with something else, though similar).
These "laws" are nothing more than the natural consequences of the properties involved, such as mass, friction, volume, density, ad infinitum.
Kuresu, you are not understanding my questions. You're describing the laws that guide our universe. I'm asking how that can be! DrAdequate may have answered my questions here but I'm not positive, I have to reread his post.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 12 of 120 (357417)
10-19-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
10-19-2006 2:56 AM


Our universe is guided based on the amounts and what types fo matter it is composed of?
quote:
composed. We can speak, for example of laws of electricity 'cos electrons are all exactly the same as one another.
So if there were less electrons, and they had different properties; the laws of electricity would have to be rewritten or would not exist?

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 120 (357419)
10-19-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Trump won
10-19-2006 8:06 AM


quote:
So if there were less electrons, and they had different properties; the laws of electricity would have to be rewritten or would not exist?
Yep.
The laws of electricity just describe the behavior of electrons.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 14 of 120 (357424)
10-19-2006 9:15 AM


In summation
The laws describe what we are living in.
Of actual substance, of weight: the very nature of objects itself is perplexing for a random occurrence.
Does anyone know what I'm saying in the previous sentence?

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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 15 of 120 (357425)
10-19-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-18-2006 10:54 PM


The "laws" that "govern our universe", can be said to be emergent properties of the constituents of this universe, eg. matter, energy, etc...
Now one could ask how they came to have these properties, but then that would be almost like asking "Why is a sphere spherical?". If something has no properties then does it actually exist? It is because it has properties... It has properties because it is.
Now we all know where you're going with your OP... but mind if i cut to the chase, and ask sort of a converse question?
If God did create this universe (whether God did or not, i don't know), then why would God need to put laws in place to govern it?
Could God not make it exist in perfection, by God's will alone?

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

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