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Author Topic:   Yoda, Obi-Wan good guys or galactic criminals?
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 1 of 21 (57175)
09-23-2003 9:03 AM


This is not my idea but I have been playing the game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy and some things I have read about the Star Wars universe crossed my mind.
As it is usually presented, Darth Vader and the emperor are evil, Luke Skywalker is a savior, and Obi-wan kenobi and Yoda are the epitome of galactic wisdom and goodness.
However, if this is true, why did the "good" jedi screw up so badly with their prophecy that they confused Anakin Skywalker with Luke? When confronted with the most powerful being ever seen in terms of the force (Anakin again) why was the reaction of the Jedi council to ignore him and send him on his way with only the disobedience of Obi-wan preventing this loose canon from running amok around the galaxy (which was ultimately not prevented)? When they find Anakin in the first place as a slave do the good guy Jedi's free the slaves? No..they say it is not their business!..yeah, great guys these Jedi.
When it is clear that the Jedi council is too stupid to realize that the ultimate bad guy is sitting as the chancellor of the Republic what does Yoda want to do? Cover it up!
Skip ahead to Episode IV, V and VI...both Obi-wan consistently lie to Luke about who his father is preferring to let him stumble into that knowledge in the process of almost getting killed...(glad these guys are paying such great attention to the guy who fullfils their prophecy). Rather than really help Luke, when Luke realizes that they are a couple of bozo's and flies off to confront Vader and save his friends are Yoda and kenobi concerned? No, Yoda says basically who the hell cares...he has a sister.
The entire training of Luke by Obi-wan and Yoda emphasizes not giving in to the darker violent emotions...so how does the second trilogy conclude? First Luke goes completely berzerk and cuts his own fathers arm off since not getting angry does not work! Then to top it off, Vader goes berzerk and kills the emperor! So much for the light side of the force getting anyone anywhere...the only one who is at least consistent is the emperor..at least he does not claim to be a good guy and then go off and behave badly.
Forward it to the game Jedi Knight Academy, Luke is now in Yoda's position. Does he teach you to avoid the dark side of the force? No he sends you constantly on missions to kill hundreds of people from different planets to prevent the "bad guys" from doing what? bringing back the empire and killing hundreds of people from different planets. Even in missions where you are just supposed to look around or investigate, you end up on a killing spree only to be greeted by Luke personally and commended for the great job you did and how well your training as a jedi is going.
It seems the only difference between the good guys and bad guys in the Star Wars universe is the color of their light sabers and the number of ships they have.
To sum it up:
Yoda and the Jedi council: 1. can't get their prophecies straight
2. cover up their incompetence
3. don't practice what they preach (even Yoda goes ape shit in a sword fight)
4. don't care about freeing slaves
5. are incompetent mentors
6. everything they teach in the end is exactly the opposite of what ultimately saves the day i.e. Luke and then Vader/Anakin's anger inspired berzerker rages.
7. and now Luke continues the tradition by restarting a school to train mass murdering jedi.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 09-23-2003 9:34 AM Mammuthus has replied
 Message 4 by awinkisas, posted 09-23-2003 12:21 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 2 of 21 (57180)
09-23-2003 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mammuthus
09-23-2003 9:03 AM


I think at least a part of what you're forgetting in the actual movies is the question of control. The problem that Anakin and Luke both have and can't seem to grasp is that emotion in and of itself isn't bad but lack of control over those emotions can be disastrous to someone who has control over such a powerful thing as the force.
Remember the speech Yoda gives to Anakin about fear leading to anger leading to hate leading to suffering. The way I read it, Yoda didn't want to take Anakin in because he could see that Anakin would never gain the control over his emotions required to keep him from turning to the dark side and becoming a monster. So rather than teaching him how to harness the Force and hoping that they could show him balance, it would be better to keep him ignorant and impotent.
As for not freeing the slaves, I read that as an admission that they couldn't solve the universe's problems. If I recall correctly, they said that their numbers were dwindling as it is and they were having difficulty with their missions as it is. If they would take it upon themselves to free these slaves, they would have to take responsibility for their future and alas, they didn't have the resources to do it.
As for death, it is as much a part of the universe as life. The question is, why is this death happening? And I didn't see Vader going "berzerk." Instead, he became a father, saw his son in trouble, and came to his rescue. Luke was doing exactly what Anakin did to the Jawa: Pouring his heart and soul into saving the one thing that mattered most to him and understanding that Luke's cause was better than his. Yeah, Luke lost control of his emotions, but it was the lesson that Yoda and the other Jedi hadn't learned: Emotion can just as easily lead to righteousness as it can to suffering. Dispassionate analysis can only go so far, especially against someone who is emotionally exploding on you.
Let's not forget...there's a reason Yoda withdrew from the world and there's still a movie to come. It could very well be that he is wracked with guilt over his disastrous mishandling of Anakin but still hasn't managed to see his error.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mammuthus, posted 09-23-2003 9:03 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 09-23-2003 9:50 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 21 (57182)
09-23-2003 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rrhain
09-23-2003 9:34 AM


quote:
Remember the speech Yoda gives to Anakin about fear leading to anger leading to hate leading to suffering. The way I read it, Yoda didn't want to take Anakin in because he could see that Anakin would never gain the control over his emotions required to keep him from turning to the dark side and becoming a monster. So rather than teaching him how to harness the Force and hoping that they could show him balance, it would be better to keep him ignorant and impotent.
However, Anakin had shown a clear interest in becoming a jedi and if thwarted by the council, he could have more easily succumbed to the dark side and become an even bigger threat (it happened anyway)...the "go away kid" attitude seemed rather strange at that point. Once they knew there was a Sith Lord (which Yoda indicated at the end of Episode I) they should have gone out of their way to keep Anakin away from him.
quote:
As for not freeing the slaves, I read that as an admission that they couldn't solve the universe's problems. If I recall correctly, they said that their numbers were dwindling as it is and they were having difficulty with their missions as it is. If they would take it upon themselves to free these slaves, they would have to take responsibility for their future and alas, they didn't have the resources to do it.
Except that they so offhandedly ignored the slaves....and in that particular situation, would it have really been so hard for a jedi master and his student (obi-wan) to free Anakin and the rest of the slaves from the flying bug guy who was basically in control of a junk yard? Dwindling numbers and difficulties fulfilling their missions is one thing but what use is a police force that can't take out an overgrown fly? Even when they outnumber him?
quote:
Let's not forget...there's a reason Yoda withdrew from the world and there's still a movie to come. It could very well be that he is wracked with guilt over his disastrous mishandling of Anakin but still hasn't managed to see his error.
I do hope for a dressing down of Yoda in the next installment. That would put the second trilogy in a more consistent redemption theme if Yoda is also seeking to restore the universe that he helped to screw up in the first place.
Though given how much ground they have to cover in the next film to get anywhere near linking the first trilogy to the second, I have doubts that the movie will be so introspective....though I did read that most of the characters who were in Episode IV show up in Episode III including Captain (to be come Imperial Grand) Moff Tarkin.

This message is a reply to:
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awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 21 (57199)
09-23-2003 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mammuthus
09-23-2003 9:03 AM


However, if this is true, why did the "good" jedi screw up so badly with their prophecy that they confused Anakin Skywalker with Luke?
If you remember in Episode I, Anakin is referred to as the one who will bring balance to the force. And in Episode VI it is Darth Vader (aka Anakin) who kills the Emperor. So Anakin is the saviour even though he needed a lot of prodding from his son Luke.
Yoda and the Jedi Council all play into the prophecy by making Anakin feel like they are holding him back. This drives him to Palpatine and ... well we all know how it goes. So the prophecy wasn't incorrect, it just took some time for things to work themselves out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mammuthus, posted 09-23-2003 9:03 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 09-23-2003 12:29 PM awinkisas has replied
 Message 8 by Asgara, posted 09-24-2003 3:48 AM awinkisas has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 5 of 21 (57202)
09-23-2003 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by awinkisas
09-23-2003 12:21 PM


Ah, but then that suggests Yoda and the council ARE the bad guys. If they know this is going to happen beforehand, they could have spared millions of lives with a simple "press the wrong button on the light sabre with Anakin looking into it" accident

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by awinkisas, posted 09-23-2003 12:21 PM awinkisas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Wounded King, posted 09-23-2003 12:50 PM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 7 by awinkisas, posted 09-23-2003 1:09 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 6 of 21 (57206)
09-23-2003 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mammuthus
09-23-2003 12:29 PM


I always thought that Vader/ Anakin's unique solution to the 'bringing balance to the force' problem was simply to kill off all the light side Jedi he could, after all there have only been a handful of Sith in all 5 films so far, considerably outnumbered by the Jedi Knights. By the end of the 3rd film if Episode IV is to be believed the score should be 2 all, Vader and Palpatine Vs. Obi-Wan and Yoda, not counting incipient Jedi like Luke and Leia.
Thats the problem with propehcies, they never mean what you think they do in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 09-23-2003 12:29 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 21 (57209)
09-23-2003 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mammuthus
09-23-2003 12:29 PM


Lightsaber accidents
The beauty of prophesies is that you know what it going to happen but not how. Kind of like the whole Star Wars preqel.
with a simple "press the wrong button on the light sabre with Anakin looking into it" accident
Obiwan - "Ohhhh .... I hate it when that happens. I lose so many padawan's that way."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 09-23-2003 12:29 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 8 of 21 (57418)
09-24-2003 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by awinkisas
09-23-2003 12:21 PM


Doesn't balance imply equilibrium? It does not mean everything is well and good. Anakin/Vader brings balance a)by creating Luke and b)by playing the necessary evil side
So while the Jedi misinterpret what the prophesy means, they have at least found the correct medium.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by awinkisas, posted 09-23-2003 12:21 PM awinkisas has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Mammuthus, posted 09-24-2003 4:37 AM Asgara has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 9 of 21 (57429)
09-24-2003 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Asgara
09-24-2003 3:48 AM


However, in the end they actually destroy the equilibrium...Vader rejoins the light side and dies, the emperor is toast, Obi-wan and Yoda are doing their Casper the friendly ghost routine...so only Luke is left as a Jedi...so there is no balance of good and evil anymore...unless what the prophecy means by balance is actually one side will come to dominate the other...which actually fits then with the continuation of the saga via video games where Luke trains new jedi to go and massacre all sorts of different people...
I still wonder though why would anyone listen to Yoda or Obi-wan?
They only had a foggy prophecy to go on and their strategy in the first trilogy gets everyone except the two of them killed. They lie to Luke about his heritage (giving him a disadvantege in The Empire Strikes Back..which almost gets him killed). They tell Luke to cultivate the goodness within him yet he only defeats Vader by using the dark side of the force i.e. anger...he should in principle start the new jedi training with the "do everything exactly the opposite of what Yoda and Obi-wan said" school.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 21 (57534)
09-24-2003 6:09 PM


Especially damning is Luke's use of the Force choke against the Gamorrean guard in Jabba's palace at the beginning of Return of the Jedi. Isn't that a dark side thing? Using the force for attack? It's not like he was defending himself or anything.
Seriously, Star Wars apologists - what's up with that?
(I've got to stop watching the new movies. Lucas is killing the magic of the frist trilogy. Thank god for Lord of the Rings or else I'd have nothing to watch at all.)

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by awinkisas, posted 09-24-2003 8:45 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (57567)
09-24-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
09-24-2003 6:09 PM


Aunt Beru did say that Luke had too much of his father in him. Maybe Luke embodies both the light and dark side of the Force. When all is said and done he is the last one standing. Anakin completes the prophecy by destroying everyone that isn't in balance, including himself.
Crash
I with you. I'm seriously disappointed with the whole franchise. I'm almost tempted to sell my Burger King collectors drinking glasses and buy LOTR action figures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 09-24-2003 6:09 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 12 of 21 (57690)
09-25-2003 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by awinkisas
09-24-2003 8:45 PM


I'm with you both. Episodes I and II were a huge disappointment...
If Episodes IV-VI were a space opera about redemption and good versus evil, episode I-III are a CGI opera about horrible acting, pseudo-intellectual babble, and occassional fart jokes, and jedi incompetence. Maybe Episode III should be called Star Wars: Jedi Gone, Good Ridance

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by awinkisas, posted 09-24-2003 8:45 PM awinkisas has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Quetzal, posted 09-25-2003 5:41 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 13 of 21 (57699)
09-25-2003 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Mammuthus
09-25-2003 4:40 AM


Actually, my greatest disappointment in Episode II (besides the basic emphasis on special effects over substance) was the marvelous character of Count Dooku (sp?). The initial subplot development there presented Dooku as a very tragic, albeit fanatic, figure: a former Jedi who, realizing that the Republic was in the hands of the Sith (Palpatine) and facing a Jedi Council utterly incapable of seeing what he saw, was forced to take matters into his own hands and develop an alliance to confront the cancer. As with most fanatics (read "true believers"), he determines to use whatever means necessary - even if repugnant to him personally - to accomplish the "greater good". By the time Episode II begins, he appears to have become so obsessed with his private war against the Sith that he has gone way over the edge - and is quite possibly clinically insane. What a great plot! And what a great, gothic character! The only person to see the threat forced by circumstances into open war against his former friends and colleagues! Marvelous!
If the writers had just kept that up, it might even have saved the film. Of course, at the end, he turns out to be working with the Sith in some sort of sordid and absurdly complicated plot to destabilize of the Republic, which for all intents and purposes was already controlled by the Sith - meaning nothing up to that point in his character or plot development made any sense whatsoever. Big disappointment. Overwriting is the bane of many potentially good movies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Mammuthus, posted 09-25-2003 4:40 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Mammuthus, posted 09-25-2003 6:19 AM Quetzal has replied
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 09-25-2003 7:11 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 14 of 21 (57708)
09-25-2003 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Quetzal
09-25-2003 5:41 AM


I agree that such a take on Dooku would have made things interesting. Instead, he is presented as a challenging guy to fight with a lightsabre (like Darth Maul) who will just be sabre fodder in the next movie with no character development whatsoever. In the original trilogy you followed several characters across all three movies with an interest in what would happen to them. In the last two movies they just throw in some familiar faces, random other characters that present some kind of challenge and then disappear or are killed, and use lots of bad dialogue to fill the spaces between the next CGI orgy.
It is amazing how quickly Star Wars turned to such a display of crapitude compared to say the various incarnations of Star Trek that slowly declined to crapitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Quetzal, posted 09-25-2003 5:41 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Quetzal, posted 09-25-2003 6:47 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 15 of 21 (57713)
09-25-2003 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Mammuthus
09-25-2003 6:19 AM


It is amazing how quickly Star Wars turned to such a display of crapitude compared to say the various incarnations of Star Trek that slowly declined to crapitude.
Hmm, sounds like a case of punctuated equilibrium vs gradualism.
edited to add: I think I like the Jedi Incompetence Hypothesis better. They're so overly dependent on the Force that they have lost basic logic skills (sort of like relying on computers for communication and work - great until the power goes out...). There doesn't appear to be a single being in the group that can do basic geopolitical analysis or simple investigative work on their own hook. The slavery issue smacks of a sort of "prime directive" proscription against interference in individual fates (it's that warped Jedi mysticism thingy again). Too bad they didn't have a Captain Kirk to blatantly flout the rules over and over...
[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 09-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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