Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Read anything by God or Darwin lately?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1 of 35 (506459)
04-26-2009 2:21 PM


Maybe one for the "Book Nook" forum? Otherwise "Coffee House" will suffice.
How may EvC members have read Charles Darwin's "On The Origin of the Species"?
How many have read the bible?
Despite having read many books about both evolution and religion, Christianity in particular, I must admit that it is only relatively recently that I can claim any direct knowledge of either of these foundational books.
I have recently purchased and been reading a 150/200th anniversary edition of "On The Origin of the Species" (illustrated and interspersed with many of Darwin's letters and autobiographical notes - edited and compiled by David Quammen http://www.amazon.ca/...strated-Charles-Darwin/dp/1402756399 - A truly beautiful book if you like books as "things" in themselves).
In contrast I have read much of the bible but always as a reference rather than a coherent chronological "story". It is fair to say that my time at EvC has resulted in me reading far more of the bible than I would otherwise have ever done. Usually, but not always, in response to various theistic arguments that I am attempting to counter. I have always tried to take the approach that you can only truly refute that which you not only understand, but also that which you understand why others believe.
Anyway...Have EvC members whether atheist, "evolutionist", theist, creationist or whatever actually read either or both of these books? Do they consider it important as to whether or not they have actually read these books?
Does it matter and if so/not why so/not?
Edited by Admin, : Change title from "Tomes".
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Son, posted 04-26-2009 2:33 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 4 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-26-2009 2:53 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 04-26-2009 5:10 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 27 by Stile, posted 04-30-2009 8:16 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 28 by Dr Jack, posted 04-30-2009 9:39 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 35 (506463)
04-26-2009 2:25 PM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 3 of 35 (506465)
04-26-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-26-2009 2:21 PM


While i haven't read either books, i think reading the Bible is more important to understand christiannity than "On The Origin of the Species" to understand evolution. The reason is that the Bible hasn't changed much while Evolution is an ongoing field of research. It means that we have progressed much since Darwin and his book has a more historical value than a scientific one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 2:21 PM Straggler has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 4 of 35 (506467)
04-26-2009 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-26-2009 2:21 PM


Honestly, I have read more of the Bible than of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" even though now my beliefs have swung the other way and I have serious 'doubts' let's say about the divine inspiration of the Bible.
Honestly, as Son so eloquantly put it, reading "On the Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin is good to understand the historical context of the TOE but is not required in order to understand where scientific research has brough the TOE now. Any college biology book should suffice in providing a decent background knowledge of the ToE and taking further advanced college courses in microbiology, organic chemistry, cellular biology and other related courses will undergird this understanding of the ToE.
I think reading the Bible as a historical record of Judaism and Christianity in no way is a bad thing. I also have a whole book shelf of Christian commentaries, handbooks, bible translations, and apologetics books i.e. Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" amongst others.
As Confucius say:
When you know a thing, to hold that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it - this is knowledge.
BTW, I am an agnostic atheist (no they are not contrary terms).

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 2:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 3:08 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 35 (506469)
04-26-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by DevilsAdvocate
04-26-2009 2:53 PM


Hey DA
Honestly, I have read more of the Bible than of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" even though now my beliefs have swung the other way and I have serious 'doubts' let's say about the divine inspiration of the Bible.
I didn't know you started off as a believer..? Tell us more about your "path".........?
Honestly, as Son so eloquantly put it, reading "On the Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin is good to understand the historical context of the TOE but is not required in order to understand where scientific research has brough the TOE now. Any college biology book should suffice in providing a decent background knowledge of the ToE and taking further advanced college courses in microbiology, organic chemistry, cellular biology and other related courses will undergird this understanding of the ToE.
I think I agree.....sort of. My aim in reading the OotS (Origin of the Species) was more defined by the EvC debate than any desire to update myself on evolutionary theory which would obviously be served better by examining more current research.
I wanted to understand the origin and foundation of the perceived "enemy".
I think reading the Bible as a historical record of Judaism and Christianity in no way is a bad thing. I also have a whole book shelf of Christian commentaries, handbooks, bible translations, and apologetics books i.e. Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" amongst others.
Despite the somewhat hypocritical fact that I have not properly read the bible I would agree that it should be considered a significant and worthwhile part of our cultural heritage that every educated person should have some knowledge of.
BTW, I am an agnostic atheist (no they are not contrary terms).
I remain unclear as to what I am exactly (although some other EvC members might have some unflattering suggestions as to the answer to that question - ) but what is the difference between an "agnostic atheist" and a "atheistic agnostic" (which I think I might be?)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-26-2009 2:53 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 04-26-2009 3:43 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-27-2009 4:20 PM Straggler has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 35 (506473)
04-26-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
04-26-2009 3:08 PM


what is the difference between an "agnostic atheist" and a "atheistic agnostic" (which I think I might be?)?
No difference, you both lack balls.
Commit pussies!!! - lol
I have read both Darwin and the Bible. Curiously, I read Darwin when I was about 15 years old, and the Bible from cover to cover 2 years ago. I would go from hotel to hotel and pick up where I left off. - (By the way people really fuck up Bibles in hotels. Some of the nastiest shit I've read has been in Bibles) - lol.
When I was 15 I found Origin to be some what boring, in fact, I won't lie, it's boring as shit. But I got through it. Honestly, I've never had a personal debate about evolution so it didn't seem special to me at all. Just another boring drawn out science book with no cool pictures of dinosuars.
The Bible however, I found facinating! One of the coolest things I've read in my life time. Weird, huh? But I have to admit, it was very fun to read, once you get past any of that stuff acually being true. In fact after reading it I can't understand how people actually believe that stuff is real, let alone acurate - faith is blinding.
Since then I have began to read the Koran in English, of course. Not as good as the Bible, very similar though in context and stories. I also will eventually read the Bhagavad Gita when I'm done with the Koran - which may take a while.
All in all I think both Origins and the Bible are good to know in general. I also think Principia by Newton is one of those that should be at least looked at too.
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 3:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 4:06 PM onifre has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 7 of 35 (506475)
04-26-2009 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
04-26-2009 3:43 PM


Straggler writes:
what is the difference between an "agnostic atheist" and a "atheistic agnostic" (which I think I might be?)?
No difference, you both lack balls.
My bollock laden advocacy of atheism is not usually something that is disputed here at EvC....
When I was 15 I found Origin to be some what boring, in fact, I won't lie, it's boring as shit. But I got through it. Honestly, I've never had a personal debate about evolution so it didn't seem special to me at all. Just another boring drawn out science book with no cool pictures of dinosuars.
Maybe I am weird. Maybe I am coming at it from a different perspective than you did. But I am finding it insightful and revealing.
The Bible however, I found facinating! One of the coolest things I've read in my life time. Weird, huh? But I have to admit, it was very fun to read, once you get past any of that stuff acually being true. In fact after reading it I can't understand how people actually believe that stuff is real, let alone acurate - faith is blinding.
The ramblings of a sometime inspired, sometimes dangerous and sometimes just plain stupid dispirate collection of human beings.....
Since then I have began to read the Koran in English, of course. Not as good as the Bible, very similar though in context and stories. I also will eventually read the Bhagavad Gita when I'm done with the Koran - which may take a while.
Good for you. I have read bits of the Koran but have thus far been unable to seperate these readings from the truly depressing arguments that inspired these forays into Islamicism.
All in all I think both Origins and the Bible are good to know in general. I also think Principia by Newton is one of those that should be at least looked at too.
Ah now I have read most of that. There is a book by Melvyn Bragg called the "12 Books That Changed the World". Principia, Origin and the King James version of the bible are all included in that list and it is a revealing read in itself http://www.amazon.co.uk/...-That-Changed-World/dp/0340839805

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 04-26-2009 3:43 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by bluescat48, posted 04-26-2009 4:52 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 11 by onifre, posted 04-26-2009 11:32 PM Straggler has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 8 of 35 (506477)
04-26-2009 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
04-26-2009 4:06 PM


Ah now I have read most of that. There is a book by Melvyn Bragg called the "12 Books That Changed the World". Principia, Origin and the King James version of the bible are all included in that list and it is a revealing read in itself
Might I ask what the other 9 are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 4:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 6:23 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 9 of 35 (506479)
04-26-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-26-2009 2:21 PM


I've read Origin of Species - have a lovely hardback facsimile copy that I like to read random chapters of from time to time. I really enjoy the Victorian writing style.
I've read the Old Testament up to Numbers 12 (which is what I've spent today doing actually - it is a Sunday after all ) and I've done the whole New Testament but not for a long time.
After that is the Book of Mormon, the Apocrypha, the Qur'an and whatever else springs to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 2:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2009 7:44 AM Modulous has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 35 (506483)
04-26-2009 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by bluescat48
04-26-2009 4:52 PM


Straggler writes:
Ah now I have read most of that. There is a book by Melvyn Bragg called the "12 Books That Changed the World". Principia, Origin and the King James version of the bible are all included in that list and it is a revealing read in itself.
Might I ask what the other 9 are?
The 12 are as follows:
Principia Mathematica - Isaac Newton
Married Love - Marie Stopes
Magna Carta - Various
The Rule Book of Association Football - Various
On The Origin of Species - Charles Darwin
On The Abolition of The Slave Trade - William Wilberforce
A Vindication Of The Rights Of Women - Mary Wollstoncraft
Experimental Researches in Electricity - Michael Faraday
Patent Specification For Arkwrights Spinning Machine - Richard Arkwright
The King James Bible - William Tyndale (+50 scholars appointed by the King)
An Inquiry Into The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations - Adam Smith
The First Folio - William Shakespeare
The definition of "book" is loose to say the least and the benefit of hindsight is embraced wholeheartedly. But agree or disagree with the various inclusions/exclusions it is, in my view, an interesting read on the thoughts that have shaped the "world" (specifically the Western world) as we know it. The author makes no real apologies for his subjective choices but he does (again in my opinion) a fine job of justifying those choices in the intended context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by bluescat48, posted 04-26-2009 4:52 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 11 of 35 (506505)
04-26-2009 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
04-26-2009 4:06 PM


My bollock laden advocacy of atheism is not usually something that is disputed here at EvC....
The agnostic part threw me off. I thought you were 100% atheist, with no trace of agnosticism.
Maybe I am weird. Maybe I am coming at it from a different perspective than you did. But I am finding it insightful and revealing.
I couldn't appreciated at 15. I'm looking on eBay for an old copy, I'd like to re-read it now as an adult. I'm sure it would be far more interesting now.
The ramblings of a sometime inspired, sometimes dangerous and sometimes just plain stupid dispirate collection of human beings.....
Yeah, I guess it can be. It depends. I really enjoy breaking it down. I found it interesting because so many people actually believe it literally and have followed it for 2000 years. Now it's in some hotel drawer with cock pics in it. That book has gone through some shit, and the stories in it, like you said, can be stupid yet so many have faith in it. I guess all that played a role in how I enjoyed it. - except for the cock pics.
I have read bits of the Koran but have thus far been unable to seperate these readings from the truly depressing arguments that inspired these forays into Islamicism.
I read it a bit like the Bible. Almost in a state of wonder, why do so many die for these words?
Ah now I have read most of that. There is a book by Melvyn Bragg called the "12 Books That Changed the World". Principia, Origin and the King James version of the bible are all included in that list and it is a revealing read in itself http://www.amazon.co.uk/...-That-Changed-World/dp/0340839805
I'll check that out, thanks.
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 4:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2009 2:52 PM onifre has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 35 (506522)
04-27-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
04-26-2009 5:10 PM


How important (or unimportant) do you think it is for those taking part in the whole EvC debate to have read these two books?
Is OotS a redundant read in this context now that we have more complete knowledge from more up to date sources?
Do you think that those who advocate the E in the EvC should have a decent knowledge of the bible?
Would those who advocate the C in the EvC do well read OotS or would a more up to date text be more relevant?
Or are the details of the two books irrelevant as long as one knows enough about the current evidence and arguments for/against each position?
Just interested in people's thoughts, no great agenda or well founded position regards any of this on my part........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Modulous, posted 04-26-2009 5:10 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 04-27-2009 9:33 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 13 of 35 (506533)
04-27-2009 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
04-27-2009 7:44 AM


Is OotS a redundant read in this context now that we have more complete knowledge from more up to date sources?
I think OtOoSbMoNSotPoFRitSfL (to give it its 'full' abbreviation ) is a fairly important read for anyone in the EvC debate purely because of the frequency that Creationists say "Darwin this" or "Darwin that". Although it is not his only work on the topic, it gives a pretty solid argument for evolution - and it still remains one of the clearest arguments out there despite the errors.
Do you think that those who advocate the E in the EvC should have a decent knowledge of the bible?
I don't think the Bible is as important a read for EvC, though it is useful to know what is going on in the books for some of the ancillary debates that crop up time and again. The same goes for the Koran. It also might be an idea for some of the C in EvC to read the damned thing!
Would those who advocate the C in the EvC do well read OotS or would a more up to date text be more relevant?
They are faced with a choice - either talk about what Darwin said and his original argument after having read it. Or talk about the more modern argument after having read it. Or both. But mixing them up, and not having read either...that's just going to cause fail. Personally - I think its a good idea to read it. And, like the Bible, it's free online!
Or are the details of the two books irrelevant as long as one knows enough about the current evidence and arguments for/against each position?
I think one can argue E or C quite easily without knowledge of either book. They are after all, only books (and by the C book I mean Genesis, some of the other Biblical books might be useful for the debate, but Genesis is obviously the directly important one - and only about 10-15% of that is really relevant to the debate anyway). Most of the creationist argument is not in Genesis anyway - that's just the story. The argument is in the millennia of apologetics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2009 7:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 35 (506558)
04-27-2009 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by onifre
04-26-2009 11:32 PM


One Day...One Day
The agnostic part threw me off. I thought you were 100% atheist, with no trace of agnosticism.
Oh who the hell knows? I certainly don't claim to know. I have no doubt that the logical, rational and evidentially valid position is to conclude a degree of atheism. But I am far less certain as to what degree of non-belief, of atheism, is justified on these grounds than I like to admit. Possibly even to myself. I also remain paradoxically hopeful (at times anyway) that there is "more" than rational logic, reason, science and the search for "truth" can hope to account for.
Having said all of that I am however absolutely sure that anyone who claims a faith based position on the basis of logic or anything that can meaningfully be called "evidence" is pissing in the wind to such an extent that they should be considered intellectually incontinent to all intents and purposes.
In a more naive incarnation at EvC I wrote this in one of my more absurd (not to mention inebriated) moments of existential angst Message 1. You might find it amusing given the impression of certainty I am obviously giving.
Anyway let's not go down the "what is atheism route" here. And for God's sake don't get me ranting on about the nature of possibilities again or I will have to break my own fingers to shut myself up.......
Straggler writes:
The ramblings of a sometime inspired, sometimes dangerous and sometimes just plain stupid dispirate collection of human beings.....
Yeah, I guess it can be. It depends. I really enjoy breaking it down. I found it interesting because so many people actually believe it literally and have followed it for 2000 years. Now it's in some hotel drawer with cock pics in it. That book has gone through some shit, and the stories in it, like you said, can be stupid yet so many have faith in it.
My previous comment was too flippant. The bible is a book I feel that I have never done justice to. I have mainly used it as a reference when debating theists and it deserves more effort from me than that. It is obviously a deeply important book to have some understanding of if you have any interest in history, philosophy etc. etc.
I hope to get round to giving it the attention it deserves one day as well as the other holy books you and others have mentioned.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by onifre, posted 04-26-2009 11:32 PM onifre has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 15 of 35 (506565)
04-27-2009 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
04-26-2009 3:08 PM


Straggler writes:
I didn't know you started off as a believer..? Tell us more about your "path".........?
I'll make it short. I grew up a Christian, baptized by my grandfather (a minister from Georgia) when I was 8 and then again when I was 23. My father and uncles where also ordained but I was not your typical preacher's kid. My father was active duty Air Force for 21 years and he was also a part time minister. After joining the Navy I lived in Hawaii where I got involved in a Christian movement heavy in the evangelism and discipling department and which at one point in history was the fastest growing Christian denomination in the world. Corruption and abuse though were rampant in the movement and I confronted the leadership in the local churches but was chastised and told that satan had led me astray. I left both the church and unfortunately my girlfriend at the time because of this. I was still a Christian at the time and attended another church in Hawaii for 2 years after.
After transferring to the east coast I married my wife (also a Christian) and attended various churches for the next several years. Being a self educated person I began to look more at the evidence for the origin of the Christianity and Judaism as well as the authorship of the Bible and became more and more aware of the glaring moral and historical inconsistencies of the Bible. I also studied biology and chemistry in college and became aware of how unscientific creationism really was and how much modern biological sciences are supported by the TOE.
Now, my wife and I attend a Methodist Church. She still hangs on to her beliefs. However, even though I am a skeptic of the Christian religion, I see how it gives my wife comfort and I am not as cruel to take that away from her. I believe my daughter is smart enough, like I was, to figure things out on her own and I try to instill in her a desire to explore and learn about the world around her. I never speak to her about my own skeptism (she is only 4), but I thought it was ironic when she asked me and my wife in bed last night where God came from and how could God create himself. And no, I didn't prod her at all.
Straggler writes:
I remain unclear as to what I am exactly (although some other EvC members might have some unflattering suggestions as to the answer to that question - ) but what is the difference between an "agnostic atheist" and a "atheistic agnostic" (which I think I might be?)?
I don't think there is a difference. An agnostic atheist is just someone who does not believe there is a God because of a lack of evidence for the existence of God but who would believe if adequate evidence were provided. Honestly I believe over 90% of atheists would fall into this boat. I was just being facetious .
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 04-26-2009 3:08 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Theodoric, posted 04-27-2009 4:42 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 17 by onifre, posted 04-27-2009 6:24 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 04-27-2009 7:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024