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Author Topic:   Dawkins - 'The God Delusion'
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 151 of 167 (409593)
07-10-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by bluegenes
07-09-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Delusion
bluegenes writes:
Which God?
http://EvC Forum: Dawkins - 'The God Delusion' -->EvC Forum: Dawkins - 'The God Delusion'
"2Thessalonians 2:11,12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"
That would be the God of St. Paul.
Same answer.
How could both of you guys miss the answer that was clearly posted in the message replied to?
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by bluegenes, posted 07-09-2007 2:57 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 152 of 167 (409606)
07-10-2007 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object
07-10-2007 11:23 AM


Which God
How could both of you guys miss the answer that was clearly posted in the message replied to?
I think you are kinda missing the point.
If disbelief is the delusion then why is disbelief in any one god less or more delusional than any other.
Are you delusional for not believing in Thor? By your own somewhat back to front logic the answer has to be yes.
Thus the question 'Which God'. Why is it delusional not to beleieve in your God any more than it is delusional to disbelieve in any other???

This message is a reply to:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 153 of 167 (409625)
07-10-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object
07-10-2007 11:23 AM


Re: Delusion
Cold Foreign Object writes:
How could both of you guys miss the answer that was clearly posted in the message replied to?
Actually, I was answering to post 143 http://EvC Forum: Dawkins - 'The God Delusion' -->EvC Forum: Dawkins - 'The God Delusion' . The one you made before that link. You can see the post being replied to on mine, and the timing (we were both writing at the same time). So, in the post I missed while writing, you make it clear that you are talking about "the God of St. Paul".
While that answers the "which God" part of my questioning, it doesn't answer the rest.
bluegenes writes:
Which God? Consider all the many Gods that have been invented in many different cultures. You write about "God", singular, so it appears that you only believe in one of them. Is your disbelief in all the others an example of delusion in operation?
Can you remember choosing which one to believe in? Can you honestly say that you were not emulating people around you?
For some time down the thread, you seem to be questioning Richard Dawkins' use of the word delusion in relation to belief in a God. Then you claim that your God sows delusions in certain people. What I'd like to know is how you've decided that belief in your particular God is not a delusion, because surely you must share my opinion that believers in Gods other than your preferred one must be suffering from delusions.
I'd also like to know how you made the choice of which God to believe in, how old you were when you made it, how you made the decision, whether you lied to yourself in the process, and, most of all, I'd like to see if you can answer these questions without practising self-delusion.
If you cannot, I think it's a point for Mr. Dawkins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-10-2007 11:23 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-10-2007 6:31 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 154 of 167 (409669)
07-10-2007 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by bluegenes
07-10-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Delusion
Is your disbelief in all the others an example of delusion in operation?
IF the objective record of information about any deity says that deity deludes the minds of nonbelievers, then yes. But at the same time, delusion is understood to mean that the deluded is unaware of being in a state of delusion.
Can you remember choosing which one to believe in? Can you honestly say that you were not emulating people around you?
First question presupposes a straw man. Second question presupposes dishonesty and a false premise (religious belief derived from man instead of God). Latter supposition is a rhetorical point and not a question. It is a component of atheistic circularity belief unable and unwilling to fathom that a God exists who does not want them.
Then you claim that your God sows delusions in certain people.
Negative. God, in the Bible, declares that He deludes the minds of those who have scorned His Son.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by bluegenes, posted 07-10-2007 2:58 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 159 by bluegenes, posted 07-11-2007 12:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 167 (409671)
07-10-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Cold Foreign Object
07-10-2007 6:31 PM


Re: Delusion
But at the same time, delusion is understood to mean that the deluded is unaware of being in a state of delusion.
So if you were the deluded one, then you wouldn't realize it. In fact, you might be convinced that it was the other people who were deluded.
Interesting thought.

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 156 of 167 (409691)
07-10-2007 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Chiroptera
07-10-2007 6:41 PM


Re: Delusion
So if you were the deluded one, then you wouldn't realize it. In fact, you might be convinced that it was the other people who were deluded.
The source I provided (Bible) said, in context, that God "sends strong delusion" to those who reject Christ and the gospel message. Since I do not reject Christ and the gospel message, Dawkins and Crashfrog are suffering the delusion, which explains why they "think" God does not exist.
Dawkins is correct in that a delusion exists. He is wrong on who is deluded since the New Testament tells us that those who reject Christ and the gospel (way of faith) are the ones suffering the delusion from God. If you want to claim that some other deity is deluding Christians, then let us see the source for this claim?
Waiting....
Ray

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 167 (409695)
07-10-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Cold Foreign Object
07-10-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Delusion
The source I provided (Bible) said, in context, that God "sends strong delusion" to those who reject Christ and the gospel message. Since I do not reject Christ and the gospel message, Dawkins and Crashfrog are suffering the delusion, which explains why they "think" God does not exist.
Exactly like I said! If you were truly deluded, you probably wouldn't recognize how ridiculous your post sounds!
Edited by Chiroptera, : added "truly"

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 158 of 167 (409696)
07-10-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Cold Foreign Object
07-10-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Delusion
Ray writes:
The source I provided (Bible) said, in context, that God "sends strong delusion" to those who reject Christ and the gospel message.
And the Koran promises you fire and meals of molten copper to burn your entrails. That is was it says in plan text, and since it is written it is so - right?
Secondly wasn't the context of 2 Thessalonian a bit anxious about the lack of the development of end times?
Third when you seek modern medical treatment do you request bible and faith-based treatment plans? not treatments produced by deluded methods and practitioners of science. It is truly amazing the science has been so successful when the majority of scientist have been sent strong delusion.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 159 of 167 (409814)
07-11-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Cold Foreign Object
07-10-2007 6:31 PM


Re: Delusion
C F O writes:
Negative. God, in the Bible, declares that He deludes the minds of those who have scorned His Son.
You're managing to illustrate very well for us why Dawkins thinks that religious people are deluded. Central to your delusion is the absurd belief that the author of the Bible was a supernatural entity of some kind.
People write books, and books are to people what termite mounds are to termites. If someone were to believe, without a jot of evidence, that one particular termite mound had been made by fairies rather than termites, we would be very reasonable in describing that person as suffering from a delusion. The same goes for people who believe that books like the Bible or the Koran are the "word of God".
You use ridiculous phrases like this:
C F O writes:
IF the objective record of information about any deity....
The Bible being an "objective record" for your particular God is just as likely as a termite mound being built by fairies.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 160 of 167 (409826)
07-11-2007 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by bluegenes
07-11-2007 12:46 PM


Re: Delusion
Definition
A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion. Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.
Since I haven't read the book, does Dawkins talk about why he uses the word 'delusion', rather than the more common description of religious belief as 'illusion'?

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 161 of 167 (409828)
07-11-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by anastasia
07-11-2007 2:39 PM


Re: Delusion
Online Etymology Dictionary
delusion
"act of misleading someone," c.1420; as a form of mental derangement, 1552. See delude. Technically, delusion is a belief that, though false, has been surrendered to and accepted by the whole mind as a truth; illusion is an impression that, though false, is entertained provisionally on the recommendation of the senses or the imagination, but awaits full acceptance and may not influence action.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
de·lu·sion /dlu’n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source de·lu·sion (d-l'zhn) Pronunciation Key
n.
The act or process of deluding.
The state of being deluded.
A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Seems to fit religion quite well.
Your definition may as well have been written by a religionist trying to make a point.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
il·lu·sion /lu’n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
2. the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
3. an instance of being deceived.
4. Psychology. a perception, as of visual stimuli (optical illusion), that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality.
5. a very thin, delicate tulle of silk or nylon having a cobwebbed appearance, for trimmings, veilings, and the like.
6. Obsolete. the act of deceiving; deception; delusion.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
illusion
c.1340, "act of deception," from O.Fr. illusion "a mocking," from L. illusionem (nom. illusio) "a mocking, jesting, irony," from illudere "mock at," lit. "to play with," from in- "at" + ludere "to play" (see ludicrous). Sense of "deceptive appearance" developed in Eng. c.1374. Illusionist "conjurer, magic act performer" is from 1850. Illusive formed in Eng. 1679; the other adj. form, illusory (1599) is from Fr. illusorie, from L.L. illusorius "of a mocking character," from L. illudere.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source il·lu·sion (-l'zhn) Pronunciation Key
n.
An erroneous perception of reality.
An erroneous concept or belief.
The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.
Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.
Illusionism in art.
A fine transparent cloth, used for dresses or trimmings.
I think Dawkins was right.

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 162 of 167 (409829)
07-11-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by iceage
07-10-2007 9:54 PM


Re: Delusion
Third when you seek modern medical treatment do you request bible and faith-based treatment plans? not treatments produced by deluded methods and practitioners of science. It is truly amazing the science has been so successful when the majority of scientist have been sent strong delusion.
iceage, That might be the best thing to do, since those deluded people are the leading cause of death in the US.
Vitamins and Supplements Rooted in Science - Life Extension
A group of researchers meticulously reviewed the statistical evidence and their findings are absolutely shocking. These researchers have authored a paper titled “Death by Medicine” that presents compelling evidence that today’s system frequently causes more harm than good.
This fully referenced report shows the number of people having in-hospital, adverse reactions to prescribed drugs to be 2.2 million per year. The number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections is 20 million per year. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million per year. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million per year.
The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. (By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.5)
Food for thought.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 163 of 167 (409835)
07-11-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by AZPaul3
07-11-2007 3:02 PM


Re: Delusion
OED writes:
"act of misleading someone," c.1420; as a form of mental derangement, 1552. See delude. Technically, delusion is a belief that, though false, has been surrendered to and accepted by the whole mind as a truth; illusion is an impression that, though false, is entertained provisionally on the recommendation of the senses or the imagination, but awaits full acceptance and may not influence action.
I am not in love with either of the words. Religious belief could be provisional and awaiting full acceptance, or completely blind. Still, there is no illusion or no delusion if the belief is not proved wrong.
I do agree that certain parts of a religion can be erroneous, and believers deluded about them.
The act or process of deluding.
The state of being deluded.
A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
None of these fit until something is proven false. For example, one could be deluded about the age of the earth, but Biblical inspiration is not in the same category.
Your definition may as well have been written by a religionist trying to make a point.
Religionist? No, it was a standard web definition.
I think Dawkins was right.
I think some people can't see the forest for the trees.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 164 of 167 (409838)
07-11-2007 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by bluegenes
07-11-2007 12:46 PM


Re: Delusion
You're managing to illustrate very well for us why Dawkins thinks that religious people are deluded.
Since Dawkins is a fire breathing Atheist-evolutionist, is he eligible to believe anything else about Theists?
Charles Darwin writes:
"When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist. This conclusion was strong in my mind about the time, as far as I can remember, when I wrote the Origin of Species...." Auotobiography pages 92,93
Was Darwin the Theist deluded when he wrote the book that all evolution books, including Blind Watchmaker is ultimately founded upon?
Of course your only escape is to say that Darwin was deluded (or lying) or not a real Theist when he looked back and wrote the above sentence at 76 years of age. That still makes the Origin a product of delusion if Dawkins is correct. Or is Dawkins only talking about Theists and Christians who oppose evolution? If so, how does the delusion "know" that the Theist or Christian is a good guy (evolutionist) from a bad guy (creationist)? LOL LOL!
Anytime an Atheist like Dawkins or yourself thinks I am deluded - that is the best evidence that I am not. The approval of Dawkins is the best evidence that I am deluded. Glad I didn't get it.
Central to your delusion is the absurd belief that the author of the Bible was a supernatural entity of some kind.
That is the CLAIM.
The claim is continually verified by checking what it says to see if it corresponds to reality. In this particular case, I have already shown where God, in the Bible, through His mouthpiece (St. Paul) has said that nonbelievers are as such because of a strong delusion sent by God for scorning His Son. Evidence of the delusion at work, in reality, is Richard Dawkins and everyone else who believes what he believes. The verses were written in the First century and, of course, Dawkins wrote his delusion claim about a year ago. Dawkins and the Bible is correct: somebody is suffering delusion. The Bible claim corresponds to reality: Atheists are suffering delusion from God for sneering at His Son. Since most Christians are evolutionists, believers cannot be under the delusion we are talking about, however. I am currently writing a paper refuting evolution and I will prove that Christian evolutionists are under a different delusion from God for betraying Him for the Atheist explanation of reality.
People write books, and books are to people what termite mounds are to termites. If someone were to believe, without a jot of evidence, that one particular termite mound had been made by fairies rather than termites, we would be very reasonable in describing that person as suffering from a delusion. The same goes for people who believe that books like the Bible or the Koran are the "word of God".
Standard Atheist ideology. We already know what Atheists believe, what is your point?
Ray

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 167 (411525)
07-21-2007 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by AZPaul3
07-11-2007 3:02 PM


Dawkins explains why he is not a fundamentalist
here is Sir. Richards quote, recently seen in the Times Online:
Dawkins writes:
Passion for passion, an evangelical Christian and I may be evenly matched. But we are not equally fundamentalist. The true scientist, however passionately he may “believe”, in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will.
Oddly, even though I am diametrically opposite of Sir. Richards beliefs, I respect the man to no end for hi intelligence and ability to present lucid points.

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