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Author Topic:   Defining Unconditional love
Am5n 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5901 days)
Posts: 106
From: New York City, New York, United States
Joined: 02-21-2007


Message 61 of 104 (448716)
01-14-2008 11:04 PM


nator writes:
God doesn't offer unconditional love. We have to do something for Him or get punished.
Jesus suffered upon the cross and paid for our sins. Jesus had passed a bowl around for those who sinned put their sin in the bowl and continued to pass it around. When Jesus received the bowl, He drank of it.
Now I already know God hates sin, He hates it so bad he tossed Adam and Eve out right on their buttocks. I cannot even imagine what Jesus was thinking at that moment, but I do love him. Even though Jesus was The Son of God, God treated Jesus the same way he would treat anyone who sinned. He didn't favor Jesus, nor let Jesus take the easy way out. We are equal nonetheless. If I was to deny Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I am "Guaranteed" to be casted down into the lake of fire. If I were to take Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I am "Guaranteed" to have Eternal life.
For those who think Religious folks don't think for themselves and just follow their church and members, let me ask you something. We are people too, We can think for ourselves, just because many religious people think if you don't believe in God your some fruitcake, it doesn't mean their following what the other members do, and even if they were, I'm gonna tell ya right now, I'll even tell this right to your face dawg, go out and look around, then come back and think about what you saw. Everybody is a follower nowadays, its just a matter of who ya following that counts.
sincerely yours, Amen.
Edited by Amen., : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by nator, posted 01-15-2008 5:47 PM Am5n has replied
 Message 77 by pelican, posted 01-15-2008 6:16 PM Am5n has replied

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 62 of 104 (448795)
01-15-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-14-2008 1:12 PM


quote:
If you can't care for your children adequately, you might give up their care to somebody else who is more capable. But that doesn't apply to God.
Are you familiar with the biblical term reprobate? Check it out, if you are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-14-2008 1:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 11:16 AM ThreeDogs has replied

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 63 of 104 (448797)
01-15-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by pelican
01-14-2008 6:22 PM


Re: Love and fear
quote:
Literally speaking, are you saying we will recieve unconditional love in the after life IF we obey the conditions laid down in this life?
You are too hung up on the word conditional and unconditional. You won't find it in scripture, so it must be something from the vocabulary of your affiliations.
quote:
How can you reason that unconditional love comes from conditional love? If we have to obey and change ourselves then we are not being loved for who we are. We cannot be who someone else wants us to be, no matter how hard we try. No matter what we project on the ouside in form of behaviour, we are the same person on the inside.
This doesn't make much sense to me, since change is the first requirement of our relationship with Jesus. If you cannot be what He wants you to be, even tho He makes the tools for it available, you don't understand a thing about Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by pelican, posted 01-14-2008 6:22 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by pelican, posted 01-15-2008 5:44 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 64 of 104 (448801)
01-15-2008 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by nator
01-14-2008 6:26 PM


quote:
So, God's feelings can be hurt like a human parent's can?
Yes, they can. You only have to read the bible to know that His feelings were wounded again and again.
quote:
Wow, I feel sorry for you if you had parents like that, and I feel sorry for your children, if they exist, if you feel that you could ever disown them or stop loving them.
Familiarize yourself with the biblical term reprobate, what it is and when it happens.
quote:
The point is, God's love is very conditional, as you've explained. this kind of contradicts the "God is Love" description we hear from Christians, doesn't it?
Your observation is entirely your own, much more, you are entitled to have it.
quote:
Right. God doesn't offer unconditional love. We have to do something for Him or get punished.
Are you now, in your life, punished for wrongdoing? If you don't believe in His existence, why do you ask such questions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by nator, posted 01-14-2008 6:26 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 01-15-2008 6:02 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 65 of 104 (448802)
01-15-2008 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
01-14-2008 7:58 PM


Re: Re-Conditions
quote:
Would you please state these conditions?
What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 01-14-2008 7:58 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 12:53 PM ThreeDogs has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 104 (448819)
01-15-2008 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ThreeDogs
01-15-2008 9:35 AM


ThreeDogs writes:
quote:
If you can't care for your children adequately, you might give up their care to somebody else who is more capable. But that doesn't apply to God.
Are you familiar with the biblical term reprobate? Check it out, if you are not.
If you have a point, feel free to make it.
The part of my post that you quoted says that God is not incapable of caring for His children (nor is there anybody more capable than He is). Whether or not His children are "reprobate" is irrelevant.

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 9:35 AM ThreeDogs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 3:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 67 of 104 (448843)
01-15-2008 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ThreeDogs
01-15-2008 9:52 AM


Re: Re-Conditions
Hi ThreeDogs,
ThreeDogs writes:
What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler?
Great question. Lets find an answer. First here is the text of what was said lets examine it.
Mark 10:17 (KJV) And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
The rich young ruler asked Jesus a question. What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
So first thing is we are not talking about unconditional love from Jesus.
We are talking about a person wanting to do some good deed that he can go to heaven.
Jesus reminded him of the commandments. He said man I aced all those from my youth up.
Jesus beholding him loved him.
Now here is a man trying to pull the wool over the eyes of Jesus.
He has just lied to Jesus and Jesus knew it. He had not kept the commandments no one had ever done that. If it was possible Jesus would not have come and died on the cross of calvary.
Since this rich young ruler so high and mighty and righteous wanted to inherit eternal life by doing some great deed Jesus made him and offer of something he could do that he might inherit eternal life.
Now if this man had done what Jesus requested I am sure Jesus would have honored His Word and given him eternal life.
Then this man would have been the only man who had earned his way into heaven.
Jesus never made this offer to any other man that I know of, or can find record of.
In answer to this rich young rulers question, "what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
Jesus said go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
In John 3:1-7 another rich young ruler came to Jesus under cover of darkness. Didn't want his friends to see him talking to Jesus. But this young man did not demand what he had to do to inherit eternal, but recognized Jesus as a teacher come from God.
Jesus told him that a man could not see the kingdom of God unless he be born again.
The young man was interested and wanted to know how this was possible.
Jesus explained we had to have a water birth and a spiritual birth.
Jesus further explained in case some would say the water birth was baptism by saying that which is born of the flesh is flesh (water birth) That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Later this young ruler was with Joseph when they claimed the body of Jesus to bury it.
So could you be a little more specific and show me where Jesus said you or even this rich young ruler had to meet certain conditions to receive his unconditional love.
He did tell the rich young ruler what he had to do to earn his unconditional love.
Now if you are the real deal and you think you are better than this young man was or anyone else has ever been and you want to try to earn the unconditional love of Jesus you go right ahead and try to earn the unconditional love of Jesus.
I think it is a lot easier just to take Jesus at His Word and receive it.
Nobody has earned it yet you may be the first.
Enjoy.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 9:52 AM ThreeDogs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 3:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 68 of 104 (448878)
01-15-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ICANT
01-15-2008 12:53 PM


Re: Re-Conditions
quote:
So could you be a little more specific and show me where Jesus said you or even this rich young ruler had to meet certain conditions to receive his unconditional love.
Be glad to ....
From Luke 18:[22] "... Then come, follow me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 12:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 4:08 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 69 of 104 (448881)
01-15-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
01-15-2008 11:16 AM


From Romans 1
I let my points be made for me, and thank you for your help, in particular and especially. However, you have served your usefulness, but again, thank you.
----------------------------------
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 01-15-2008 3:41 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 104 (448886)
01-15-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ThreeDogs
01-15-2008 3:34 PM


Re: From Romans 1
Where does your quote from Romans show God disowning His reprobate children?
Are you aware of the parable of the prodigal son?

“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)
“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 3:34 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 71 of 104 (448898)
01-15-2008 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ThreeDogs
01-15-2008 3:26 PM


Re: Re-Conditions
Hi ThreeDogs,
ThreeDogs writes:
Be glad to ....
From Luke 18:[22] "... Then come, follow me."
I thought this was part of the requirements Jesus stated for the rich young ruler who was very religious to do some great deed to inherit eternal life.
I did not see where Jesus separated things out of the deal.
If He did could you please point that out.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 3:26 PM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 104 (448912)
01-15-2008 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ICANT
01-14-2008 7:37 PM


Re: Re-Unconditional Love
quote:
Would you please explain to me what I have to do to get God's unconditional love.
If God's love was unconditional, you wouldn't have to do anything to get it.
That's kinda what unconditional means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ICANT, posted 01-14-2008 7:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:58 PM nator has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 73 of 104 (448916)
01-15-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ThreeDogs
01-15-2008 9:41 AM


Re: Love and fear
Hi three dogs. I think you are getting too hung up on Jesus and the bible. The topic is 'definition of unconditional love'. God and Jesus are just reference points in which to clarify the definition.
In your example of Jesus' love, it is clearly 'conditional' love. If this is the 'love' that is imitated by humanity, then what chance have we of understanding and accepting each other for who we are?
We are born equal and we are all a product of our whole life experiences, without exception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-15-2008 9:41 AM ThreeDogs has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 74 of 104 (448919)
01-15-2008 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Am5n
01-14-2008 11:04 PM


quote:
Now I already know God hates sin, He hates it so bad he tossed Adam and Eve out right on their buttocks.
Right.
God's love is very conditional.
(This is aside from the problem of Adam and Eve not knowing the difference between right and wrong before eating of the tree, so how could they know it was a sin to do so?)
quote:
I cannot even imagine what Jesus was thinking at that moment, but I do love him.
Um, Jesus didn't exist yet, if I have my timeline correct.
quote:
Even though Jesus was The Son of God, God treated Jesus the same way he would treat anyone who sinned.
Right. Torture, pain, suffering, torment.
God's love is conditional.
quote:
He didn't favor Jesus, nor let Jesus take the easy way out. We are equal nonetheless. If I was to deny Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I am "Guaranteed" to be casted down into the lake of fire. If I were to take Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I am "Guaranteed" to have Eternal life.
Right. God's love is conditional. You have to do something to get it.
quote:
For those who think Religious folks don't think for themselves and just follow their church and members, let me ask you something. We are people too, We can think for ourselves, just because many religious people think if you don't believe in God your some fruitcake, it doesn't mean their following what the other members do, and even if they were, I'm gonna tell ya right now, I'll even tell this right to your face dawg, go out and look around, then come back and think about what you saw. Everybody is a follower nowadays, its just a matter of who ya following that counts.
I thought you were going to ask me something, but the above rant has no question in it.
I do believe you are people, and I do believe youcan think for yourselves.
If you actually do think for yourselves is something else entirely. I see quite a bit of herd mentality in religions, because that's what religions are mostly for; behavior control and social cohesion.
And, by the way, I don't follow any particular philosophy or religion.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Am5n, posted 01-14-2008 11:04 PM Am5n has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 6:18 PM nator has replied
 Message 81 by Am5n, posted 01-15-2008 9:00 PM nator has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 75 of 104 (448924)
01-15-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nator
01-15-2008 5:40 PM


Re: Re-Unconditional Love
Hi nator,
If God's love was unconditional, you wouldn't have to do anything to get it.
You are correct as I pointed out in Message 43
ICANT writes:
God's love is conditional and has been since the first man willfully disobeyed Him. Even the first man's existence was conditional. Eat the fruit you die.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nator, posted 01-15-2008 5:40 PM nator has not replied

  
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