Tal's Iraq War: Blood for Oil, Oil for Food, Food for Thought

Uhhhhhh... I currently live outside the US. I've been living off and on outside of the US for quite a while as well. I dislike the US press and criticize a majority of it.How do you know what I am exposed to?I might add that you have not been to the US and only exposed to what it is through a media filter, one double-filtered through your own personal lens of invective. Huh???? I have been fighting with Tal on many mythologies.I will note you simply label someone American, capitalist, or a sympathizer of such, and reject their position (or criticism of your statements). As far as "without inspection" goes, you have never been to the US.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

To be perfectly honest... the US decimating untold numbers of Indians and sticking the rest in "reservations" (aka "camps" aka "concentration camps").We didn't have as well oiled a machine for their destruction, but the "solution" was the same, don't you think?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

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. As far as "without inspection" goes, you have never been to the US.

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You know, I'm pretty confident you have argued against this "you have to see it with your own eyes or its just hearsay" argument. It is a ridiculous, illogical, facade.The assertion that only people who have been to American can understand America is just ludicrous. As I pointed out, America is like any other culture, with identifiable tropes and features. I do NOT have to be resident in the country to observe those features - especially not when the US conducts a foreign intervention per year. As you know I think I am in fact in a better position to observe the facts about America from outside - untrammelled by the self-censorship exhibited by your citizens, your media, and your government.

While this is correct, sometimes a person says things so wrong that you know they don't know what they are talking about and that an experience of that something they are wrong about will show them they are wrong.Your stated vision of what US life is like is so far off base, it really is notable.So, I am not stating that one needs to go to the US to understand the US, what I am saying is that you need to go to the US because clearly you are stating things way beyond your knowledge and so would be aided by some personal experience.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Come back when you get some common sense.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

With respect, I fail to see the censorship. Do you mean self-censorship in the refusal to listen to your argument?As for self-righteousness and national destiny, what else would you expect in a nation that has always had these things? These were in some way or another a part of this country from its founding. That in no way makes it comparable to Nazi Germany any more than practically any other country in the world since the advent of nationalism. Parallels can be drawn between fascism and many components of almost any administration.That being said. It is interesting to note how in American history we had both an increase in both groundbreaking legislation for human rights and terrible anti-nationalism legislation since WWI. In the same generation we have both womans suffrage and the Espionage Act. Later we have the success of the civil rights movement and also sanctioned communist witchhunts. Unfortunatly the addition of aspects of fascism has only seen an acceleration since the Bush administration. Luckily the system here in the US is more robust then that of Nazi Germany and the ability to make change within the system has not been forsaken.While your vehement disapproval of soldering is ethically admiriable it does seem to be quite a lofty and vacant position to hold given the world we live in and its history. I would hardly call the men in the US who volunteered for the Navy after Pearl Harbor murderers in any regard.Murder is by definition the unlawfull killing on a human being. Therefore it is then up to the definition of unlawfull that would describe an act of killing as murder. Killing in self defense or in national defense should not be considered murder.In our current situation I would actually agree with your assessment that much murder has taken place in Iraq both by the US, its allies, and the insurgency. The US is at least admirable in its official position and seeming desire to limit civilian casualties but its improper management of the situation does not wash the blood of our hands. Falluja is one situation I feel is one of the largest part of the disaster that has been the war so far. It was around that time that it felt like the war changed from a misguided liberation campaign into a violent occupation effort. Not to say that the insurgency is totally blameless though as you sometimes seem to think. While some may be or may have been 'freedom fighters' I would tend to think that anyone who would target civilian children of populace more of an enemy of that populace than a civil militia liberator.Overall, our boys over there are being guided by a backwards, anti-American administration into a volatile situation. Acts of murder, torture, tragedy, self-defense, courage, mercy, sacrafice and all others in the continuium should be expected long before history can look back at this with any conclusions.Being a soldier does not make you a murder just because the unsanctioned act of your government. Being a soldier who shoots an innocent figure in the dark or bombs a building later discovered to be housing children does make you a murder even if knowing would have stayed your hand. In war there is murder and muderers. In war there is also sacrafice and heroes. Despite the reasons for the war, there will always be these things.

I would disagree. While that was not the US's finest hour, our intent was not to exterminate a race.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Respectfully, as much as some of contra's reasoning might seem rediculious, how are statements like this furthering the discussion rather than the flame war?

I'm sorry, but their intention was the exact same as ours. The were trying to remove undesirables from within their borders. They began by using deportation and when that was taking too long, and became a practical impossibility during a time of war, they shifted full into just annihilating them.You may note that it was not just a "race", their extermination campaign also included homosexuals, communists, intellectuals, and artists.The difference between them and us is that we had a lot of land to push them into and no one to question what we were doing. The only good indian is a dead one, and manifest destiny were created by us and was popular even up into the 20th century.I might remind you the native americans are still in the ghettos and we have no plans to repatriate them anytime soon.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

I still don't think your analogy holds any weight. The Nazis were trying to wipe the Jews of the face of the earth. That is a big difference.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

We had a national policy that included the subversion of native american rights by any means necessary. The motivation was political, economic, and even religious.While I do agree with you that it is a stretch to associate it with the outright genocide of WWII, it is an example of our potential for evil that all Americans should take to heart.

Yes that is a big difference in propaganda. Again, let us look at the evidence shall we? They were not trying to wipe jews from the face of the earth, they were trying to wipe all undesirables (of which jews were a large group) off of the face of Nazi Europe.There is quite a bit of evidence of what they were doing and that was getting undesirables out any way possible. Finally they resorted to outright extermination. They certainly were not for the importation of undesirables to exterminate, nor were they advocating that everyone else kill these people or adopt their methods (which if you remember they kept hidden).Though they were clearly antisemitic, they were anti a lot of things. High among them is antihomosexual and anti comunist which last time I checked was not a race. They were all identified and targeted for removal and finally annihilation. It started as a purge and became genocide.In the US, we were taking over the entire landmass of N America as fast as we could. Indigenous populations were referred to as "savages" and treated as undesirables in the same fashion. It was our intent (as was the Nazis) to purify the land for our culture by killing them or forcing them into small areas where they could be converted or killed. Unlike the Nazis, we did have pockets of land available to stuff them into for longer periods of time.So yes, we were intent upon and very well did remove a race from existence on our lands. Indeed as the lands they were placed into become desirable we continue to use manifest destiny and simply take the land from them. This is usually for mineral resources.We did not look like Nazis, we did not talk like Nazis. The Nazis were a product of 20th century technology and fascism. But the actions were the same. Undesirables were targeted for their difference in culture and persecuted (killing and concentrating them in camps) to remove them from the desired lands.We did arguably worse things than gassing people and stuffing their corpses in ovens. Have you ever heard of the trail of tears?Oh yeah, but we had a much better PR campaign. They were the bad guys and we were the good guys, thus we didn't have to feel so bad for what we did. We don't have to ask, how did that happen? They were obviously evildoers fighting civilization and freedom. They had to be stopped and freedom spread from sea to sea.This message has been edited by holmes, 01-19-2005 15:02 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Hi again: Let me see if I can explain WHY it distracts from meaningful discussion, and I’ll use myself as the example. Personally, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I do not care for many of the things our Government does (past and present) and this particular administration seems, in my opinion, to be the worst in recent memory. Criticizing our actions is not bothersome to me. I’m an adult and I can pretty much take it. However, when you take the stand that all of our soldiers are murderers, or the U.S. is just another Nazi Germany, or the World would be better off with the destruction of the U.S., then I stop giving a shit about your opinion. And No, contracycle, it’s NOT because I’m an American and don’t like to be criticized. It’s not because I don’t want to hear the truth. It’s simply because reading statements like these seem to do nothing but piss people off (I’d feel the same if you said the same thing about Iraq). Fine, you may think it’s the truth, but if people stop reading what your write, then what is the purpose of continuing to write? Get it? I stop reading and/or trusting the other things you saybe they right or wrong. I stop reading and/or caring what you say. And isn’t it your desire to get the U.S to change its policies? Well, you are not going to get too many people here to agree with you if you call them murdering Nazis.
I mean, seriously, that fact that you and I are even having this discussion should be proof enough. Hell, I basically agree with what you’re saying but am starting to not give a shit anymore. I’ve gone from being on your side to arguing with you. Have you read some of the other posts hereby Americans? Get off your soap box about being the only knower of truth. So you are opposed to ALL war? You can think of no behavior what-so-ever that justifies military action? Really? The struggle against apartheid was wrong then? I’ll be stunned if this is indeed how you feel. I will give you credit and accolades for being consistent though. Now that’s funny. You compare the U.S. to Nazi Germany and somehow think it is a non-provocative statement? Wow, you are simply amazing. Well it provoked me to respond, did it not?so I guess that made it a provocative statement.
I will apologize for my comment about you stating it simply for the shock value, but don't kid yourself about it being non-provocative.In post 180 you say: Wait, you think that most of our soldiers volunteered for service in hopes of going off to war and killing someone? And yet you seem to think you’re an expert on American culture.Let’s talk about censorship
Here is what you said in post 173: And then in post 176 I asked if the censorship you were referring to was that fact that in the U.S., we don’t call our soldiers murderers. Your response in post 178 was: My rejection of you Nazi comparison obviously had nothing to do with your comment about censorship, so your latest response is a lie. I demand you retract the statement.

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Come back when you get some common sense.

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Why don't you come back when you get some morals?

I have morals.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us