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Author Topic:   On Judging Others
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 121 (340330)
08-15-2006 2:46 PM


The more I think about this injunction that we must not judge others, the sillier it seems. We judge people all the time. Moreover, why is the judgment of others always thought of in a negative sense? They are also favorable judgments. They are many different kinds of judgment.
There are moral judgments: "This man beat his wife. This is a bad man." "This man helped me a lot. This is a good man."
There are aesthetic judgments: "This woman is beautiful." "God,he looks terrible after his illness."
There are practical judgments: employers judge employees; teachers judge students.
There are judgments about behavior that have to do with social mores: "This man is rude. I don't like this man." "This woman is very polite. I like her."
The injunction not to judge others is a simple-minded notion. This is not the way life works.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2006 5:20 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-15-2006 6:00 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2006 6:53 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 56 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-17-2006 6:39 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 63 by mitchellmckain, posted 08-18-2006 2:21 PM robinrohan has replied

AdminFaith
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 121 (340345)
08-15-2006 4:58 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 121 (340350)
08-15-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 2:46 PM


don't look like judgements to me
Judge not....
I don't think that means we can't have opinions of each other.
"This man beat his wife. This is a bad man."
IMO, a judgement would be more along the lines of this man deserves to be beaten, or this man will go to hell, not just the opinion that he is not good.
Basically, I'm saying typing that what you have listed in the OP are not judgements, but just observations or at most opinions. Opinion can be synonymous with judgement by some definitions but when we are called to not judge, I don't think it means to not have opinions, I think it means to not assign the punishment.
The injunction not to judge others is a simple-minded notion. This is not the way life works.
It may not be the way that life works, but that doesn't mean it can't be something that we shouldn't do.
why is the judgment of others always thought of in a negative sense?
The Christian answer is that it should be left up to God. A more practical answer might be that we can't know what the 'punishment' should be because we don't have all the circumstances nor the know-how to asign one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 2:46 PM robinrohan has replied

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 Message 4 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 5:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 121 (340356)
08-15-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2006 5:20 PM


Re: don't look like judgements to me
Opinion can be synonymous with judgement by some definitions but when we are called to not judge, I don't think it means to not have opinions, I think it means to not assign the punishment.
In ordinary conversation, it means an opinion about somebody. If somebody says, as people often do, "I try not to be judgmental about people," this does not mean,"I try not to assign punishment." It means that the person tries not to have negative opinions about people. That sounds nice, but it leads to hypocrisy. Judgments are inevitable. The world runs by judgments.
It may not be the way that life works, but that doesn't mean it can't be something that we shouldn't do.
When I say that life works this way, I'm not saying that it's really too bad, but that's life. I'm saying that it is impossible for life to work any other way.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by Faith, posted 08-15-2006 6:15 PM robinrohan has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 121 (340364)
08-15-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 5:44 PM


Re: don't look like judgements to me
In ordinary conversation, it means an opinion about somebody.
When we are called to not judge, I don't think it means in the ordinary conversation sense of the word...as an opinion. I think it is refering to something more than that. Its when you add to your opinion and make some kind of an assessment about that person based on that opinion that you start to judge them, IMHO.
I'm saying that it is impossible for life to work any other way.
If judgement means just an opinion then I agree but if it means something more then I disagree. It comes down to our interpretation of the meaning of the word judgement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 5:44 PM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 121 (340365)
08-15-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 2:46 PM


The idea started with the Biblical "judge not lest ye be judged" but the word "judge" has some ambiguity and people are always extending it to mean things it was not intended to mean (ironically, in fact, often being judgmental of the judger in exactly the sense the teaching warns against), such as some of the things on your list.
In fact we ARE supposed to judge one another, to be able to discern right from wrong, to rebuke wrongs and so on -- but in a spirit of good will to the person, knowing we too can fall the same way. What the injunction against judging one another is about is putting oneself morally above another person, in a self-righteous spirit. Here's one commentator on it:
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged--To "judge" here does not exactly mean to pronounce condemnatory judgment, nor does it refer to simple judging at all, whether favorable or the reverse. The context makes it clear that the thing here condemned is that disposition to look unfavorably on the character and actions of others, which leads invariably to the pronouncing of rash, unjust, and unlovely judgments upon them. No doubt it is the judgments so pronounced which are here spoken of; but what our Lord aims at is the spirit out of which they spring. Provided we eschew this unlovely spirit, we are not only warranted to sit in judgment upon a brother's character and actions, but in the exercise of a necessary discrimination are often constrained to do so for our own guidance. It is the violation of the law of love involved in the exercise of a censorious disposition which alone is here condemned. And the argument against it--"that ye be not judged"--confirms this: "that your own character and actions be not pronounced upon with the like severity"; that is, at the great day.
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
{Edit: There are also verses that say we ARE to judge:
Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: [but] in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Cr 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 121 (340367)
08-15-2006 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 5:44 PM


Re: don't look like judgements to me
In ordinary conversation, it means an opinion about somebody. If somebody says, as people often do, "I try not to be judgmental about people," this does not mean,"I try not to assign punishment." It means that the person tries not to have negative opinions about people. That sounds nice, but it leads to hypocrisy. Judgments are inevitable. The world runs by judgments.
You are right, and some of these judgments are the kind that Jesus is teaching against, but many are of a sort that can't be avoided, are even necessary, as you say, yet people misapply that verse to them anyway.
The kind that Jesus is teaching against are the kind that MISjudge others, or apply harsh standards, or say gossipy mean things, or impute nasty motives instead of giving the benefit of the doubt and that sort of thing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 5:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 6:18 PM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 121 (340368)
08-15-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
08-15-2006 6:15 PM


political correctness
The kind that Jesus is teaching against are the kind that MISjudge others, or apply harsh standards, or say gossipy mean things, or impute nasty motives instead of giving the benefit of the doubt and that sort of thing.
Here's the odd thing about this little slogan, "I don't judge others."
It's really got nothing to do with Christianity. It's a part of the simpleminded morality we can call "political correctness."

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by docpotato, posted 08-16-2006 2:28 PM robinrohan has replied

docpotato
Member (Idle past 5308 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 9 of 121 (340532)
08-16-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 6:18 PM


Re: political correctness
Here's the odd thing about this little slogan, "I don't judge others."
Who really says this?
And even if they do, I think the meaning is often an abbreivated form of saying, "I don't assume the standards by which I judge people are necessarily a set of uniform, absolute standards by which everyone should be judged."
Also: just what the hell is "political correctness" anyway? What does that even mean? I see this term bandied about by people all the time, but I don't know what on earth it's supposed to mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 6:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 121 (340565)
08-16-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by docpotato
08-16-2006 2:28 PM


Re: political correctness
Also: just what the hell is "political correctness" anyway? What does that even mean? I see this term bandied about by people all the time, but I don't know what on earth it's supposed to mean.
The term "politically correct" was originally a joke among liberals having to do mostly with race, gender, and groups of various sorts that might be discriminated against, such as people in wheelchairs. So the liberals had to be real careful not to offend anybody, such as calling a disabled person a "cripple" or something of that sort. The joke consisted of taking this agenda to the extreme. Through the years, the term "political correctness" came to stand for this agenda of not discriminating against anybody. In other words, we must not judge, for if we do we might offend somebody or some group.
Another slogan of political correctness is being "inclusive." Exclusivity is evil; inclusiveness is good.
Traditional Christianity, for example, is exclusive and therefore evil by politically correct standards.
New Age Christianity, such as Jar's religion, is inclusive and therefore good by politically correct standards.
Political correctness is a pretense.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 121 (340573)
08-16-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by docpotato
08-16-2006 2:28 PM


Re: political correctness
Who really says this?
It's common and moreover it is said, I think, automatically, unthinkingly. It's ingrained within American culture. I don't know about European culture.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 121 (340581)
08-16-2006 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
08-16-2006 5:09 PM


Re: political correctness
It has a definite political agenda to it. It's not OK to offend people in wheelchairs or gay people or third world people or women or Muslims or Wiccans or any religious belief except Christianity, or black people "African Americans" or Indians "Native Americans" or any race but the white race, and conversely it's also correct to say as much against Christianity and white people, especially white men, and Israel as possible and to place all the evils in the world at their doorstep. Really, it goes back to the Marxist agenda against the West.

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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2430 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 121 (340583)
08-16-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
08-16-2006 5:09 PM


Re: political correctness
So, if political correctness is actually a joke, and was never really meant to be taken seriously, then who actually holds to the idea?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by robinrohan, posted 08-16-2006 5:09 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by robinrohan, posted 08-16-2006 6:30 PM nator has replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2430 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 121 (340584)
08-16-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
08-16-2006 5:57 PM


Re: political correctness
quote:
or any race but the white race
What is the "white race"?
What is the ancestry?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 08-16-2006 5:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 121 (340586)
08-16-2006 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
08-16-2006 5:57 PM


Re: political correctness, Berkeley style
Since I spent some years in Berkeley, one of the earliest cauldrons of political correctness, I experienced it before it became coin of the realm or the McPC now heard everywhere. One memory sticks in my mind of being in a store when a young man in a wheelchair accidentally bumped into me. Being a basically decent well-brought up fellow he apologized, and I said "No problem" and all was well UNTIL his very Berkeley Marxist Militant PC attendant, obviously there to train him in his Rights, counseled him furiously to "NEVER apologize to anyone EVER."
That's PC.
Another bizarre case of it in Berkeley was the conscious practice of pedestrians crossing the street against red lights, forcing cars to stop although they had the green light, this done on the political ground that cars were inhumane. This was usually in the vicinity of the university where the foot traffic was pretty intense.
That's PC.
The idea is to defend one group's supposed rights WHILE offending, demeaning and inconveniencing some other group, the Designated Oppressor Group, to the whitehot max.

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