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Author Topic:   Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 76 of 101 (327210)
06-28-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Nuggin
06-27-2006 9:53 AM


Re: Reply to Nuggin
While DNA evidence has helped overturn many false convictions, the Supreme Court has actually said, that proof of innocence is not in and of itself sufficient to suspend or cancel an execution.
Let me rephrase that -- it doesn't matter that you are innocent, your $20 an hour lawyer screwed up during the appeal process, so you have to die.
Are you seriously saying the Supreme Court condones execution of people who have been proved innocent after their initial conviction?
Even allowing for stay of execution that suggests life imprisonment for an innocent person. Surely that cannot be true in the land of the free and the home of the brave!! You must be joking!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Nuggin, posted 06-27-2006 9:53 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 77 of 101 (327239)
06-28-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Malachi-II
06-28-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Reply to Nuggin
Sadly, I'm not kidding
The decision is consistent with, and even cites, the U.S. Supreme Court Herrera decision of 1993 in which even proof of innocence may not be considered in a federal appeals court to overturn a state court conviction. In other words, the Herrera decision allowed the state to execute Herrera without hearing evidence of the man’s innocence.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 101 (327272)
06-28-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Ben!
06-27-2006 6:58 PM


Re: The Halls of Just Us
Omni's reply reflects my position admirably.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 79 of 101 (327339)
06-28-2006 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Omnivorous
06-27-2006 11:13 AM


Re: Bright Lines and Hanging in the Morning...
Omni writes:
Despite a judicial system that ferociously resists attempts to exonerate the wrongly convicted, the numbers of such exonerated prisoners continue to increase. That the administration of capital punishment in the U.S. is riddled with racism and class bias is incontestable. That the police extract false confessions and prosectuors withhold exculpatory evidence has been proven time and again.
You nailed it pal.
Justice in this country is only guaranteed to those who can afford the most influential lawyers - and those celebrity bastards get more than justice - they get deferential treatment. OJ and Michael Jackson are prime examples.
What's left to respect in the American justice system?
Certainly not enough credibility to permit any of those legal asswipes the right to determine life and death for anyone else.
Edited by EZscience, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Omnivorous, posted 06-27-2006 11:13 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 80 of 101 (327385)
06-29-2006 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Malachi-II
06-28-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Reply to Nuggin
I now have to concede that the death penalty should be abandoned in every state - except in the cases of those cynical bastards who corrupted our legal systems and continue to do so with impunity. They are truly worthy of removal from every level of influence.

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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 81 of 101 (327634)
06-29-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Malachi-II
06-28-2006 5:48 AM


Re: Belated Reply to Post #55
Perhaps you will be kind enough to share your thoughts on the staggering increase in drugs and drug associated crime.
They are poor, their lives suck and they live in bad neighborhoods? Honestly, I don't know.
Of course it's been proven throughout history that prohibition simply creates crime.
I don't care why people take drugs.... All I know is that they do... and as a society we have choices about how to deal with the problem. Is it a criminal or medical problem? Many european countries have been far more successful with drug programs that treat drug use as a medical problem (and these programs are much less expensive).
The drug war is a stupid waste of money... and that's a fact

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Malachi-II, posted 06-28-2006 5:48 AM Malachi-II has replied

Replies to this message:
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Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 82 of 101 (327682)
06-30-2006 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-29-2006 10:40 PM


Reply to Message 81
I don't care why people take drugs.... All I know is that they do... and as a society we have choices about how to deal with the problem. Is it a criminal or medical problem?
I suspect there are many more reasons why people take drugs. You ought to be aware that drug abuse is wide spread among the rich and poor. There is no class barrier. The idea that only the poor are addicted is nonsense. The poor are simply brushed aside, as always.
I cannot escape the conviction that we - societies in general - are not prepared to examine the deeper causes of drug & alcohol abuse, suicides, increasing violence - particularly among the young - and increasing moral collapse of family and community structures. In other words societies are in complete denial. We are not willing to bite the bullet and accept the mess we are in - created by ourselves. I repeat what I said earlier; we reap what we sow and get what we deserve. I have growing contempt for the social engineers, politicians and money grabbers who cynically contribute to the obvious failures in all societies. If you think seriously about it, all our lives suck. We are sleep walking through it all, pretending that wealth creation alone is the answer to every problem facing mankind.
It's difficult to comprehend that the most intelligent and creative species on this planet can also be so stupid and not know it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-29-2006 10:40 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 07-01-2006 9:21 AM Malachi-II has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 101 (327941)
07-01-2006 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Malachi-II
06-30-2006 5:17 AM


Re: Reply to Message 81
quote:
I cannot escape the conviction that we - societies in general - are not prepared to examine the deeper causes of drug & alcohol abuse, suicides, increasing violence - particularly among the young - and increasing moral collapse of family and community structures.
Crime, especially violent crime, and especially crime among teenagers, is actually at something like a 30-year low in the US.
However, the reporting of crime, especially violent crime, is much more prevalent than it used to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Malachi-II, posted 06-30-2006 5:17 AM Malachi-II has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Malachi-II, posted 07-01-2006 11:47 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 101 (327946)
07-01-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Omnivorous
06-27-2006 11:13 AM


Re: Bright Lines and Hanging in the Morning...
We, you and me, unintentionally allow people to die every day, due to the global and national systems of government we live in. I don't feel any worse about the state unintentionally allowing innocent people to die than I do about me allowing innocent people to die.
quote:
Let me rephrase this as well. Despite my efforts--political (voting and speaking out) and personal (contributing time and money to reform efforts, famine relief, volunteering as mentor and food kitchen worker), the world remains full of unjust death. I feel as bad about that as I do about the innocent being executed. It is morally incumbent upon me to resist both. I do. Your argument seems to suggest that since one cannot resist all the injustice in the world, one should not resist any of it.
This is the crux.
If I am reading Ben correctly, he seems to be saying that because doesn't care about the lives of the innocents who die due to the unintentional consequences of global or national policies, he doesn't care about executing innocent people either.
Sort of like, "I can't save any of those people, so I've decided to not care what happens to them."
That attitude is, to me, deeply immoral.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 85 of 101 (327973)
07-01-2006 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
07-01-2006 9:34 AM


Re: Bright Lines and Hanging in the Morning...
If I am reading Ben correctly, he seems to be saying that because doesn't care about the lives of the innocents who die due to the unintentional consequences of global or national policies, he doesn't care about executing innocent people either.
I think you are misreading Ben.
I read Ben as saying that we live in an imperfect world, and our system of justice depends on imperfect human judgements. Therefore perfection is unachievable. The aim should be to have a very low rate of wrongful conviction, not an unachievable zero rate. I also read Ben as being concerned about wrongful convictions in cases of long prison sentences, not just in capital cases.
I largely agree with Ben on this. The only way to completely eliminate conviction of innocent people is to shut down our justice system. But if we do that, it will be replaced by street justice, also resulting in punishment of innocent people.

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 Message 84 by nator, posted 07-01-2006 9:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 86 of 101 (327984)
07-01-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by nator
07-01-2006 9:21 AM


Re: Reply to Message 83
Crime, especially violent crime, and especially crime among teenagers, is actually at something like a 30-year low in the US.
However, the reporting of crime, especially violent crime, is much more prevalent than it used to be.
Are you saying there is more reporting of violent crime than there was previously and that violent crime is even less than 30 years ago, when reporting was not so prevalent? That sounds strange.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 07-01-2006 9:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 07-01-2006 9:24 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 101 (328139)
07-01-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by nwr
07-01-2006 11:20 AM


Re: Bright Lines and Hanging in the Morning...
quote:
I read Ben as saying that we live in an imperfect world, and our system of justice depends on imperfect human judgements. Therefore perfection is unachievable. The aim should be to have a very low rate of wrongful conviction, not an unachievable zero rate. I also read Ben as being concerned about wrongful convictions in cases of long prison sentences, not just in capital cases.
I largely agree with Ben on this. The only way to completely eliminate conviction of innocent people is to shut down our justice system. But if we do that, it will be replaced by street justice, also resulting in punishment of innocent people.
We were not talking about convicting innocent people.
This is unavoidable, as you say.
We were talking about putting them to death
This is, most certainly avoidable.
And, I do agree that our system is imperfect, and that is exactly why we should not be putting anyone to death.
Edited by schrafinator, : quote box fix
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 101 (328144)
07-01-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Malachi-II
07-01-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Reply to Message 83
quote:
Are you saying there is more reporting of violent crime than there was previously and that violent crime is even less than 30 years ago, when reporting was not so prevalent?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
quote:
That sounds strange.
Yey it is true, at least in the US.
Sensationalism gets people's attention, and since deregulation and the consolidation of so many news sources into huge multinationals like Disney and Time/Warner, the mainstream news has become about making money rather than engaging in real journalism for the public good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Malachi-II, posted 07-01-2006 11:47 AM Malachi-II has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Malachi-II, posted 07-02-2006 3:45 AM nator has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 89 of 101 (328190)
07-02-2006 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by nator
07-01-2006 9:24 PM


Re: Reply to Message 88
Sensationalism gets people's attention, and since deregulation and the consolidation of so many news sources into huge multinationals like Disney and Time/Warner, the mainstream news has become about making money rather than engaging in real journalism for the public good.
One might naturally assume from the above that if the US media are solely concerned with profit rather than real journalism (full news reportage) that people cannot trust information they are fed. For example, how can you be certain that violent crime is as low as you say if your source if information is the media? Are you and others aware of what is happening in Guantanamo? Are you aware of the damage the Bush administration has done to our nation's reputation abroad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 07-01-2006 9:24 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 90 of 101 (328212)
07-02-2006 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Malachi-II
07-02-2006 3:45 AM


Re: Reply to Message 88
For example, how can you be certain that violent crime is as low as you say if your source if information is the media?
The media usually obtain their crime statistic information from the federal government. Here is where such information is consolidated in a government publication, the Statistical Abstract of the US, which is the most likely source of media figures:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/06statab/law.pdf
The first table, based upon information from the FBI, shows overall violent crime in the US has been declining since 1992 and overall property crime has been declining since 1989. The figures are as trustworthy as the source, which is the US federal government. Despite the source of the statistics, the decentralization of the information monopoly due to the internet, among other reasons such as whistleblower legislation and seperation of powers, generally prevents such figures from being manipulated beyond recognition.
The media does not have the resources to compile their own nationwide statistics, and would probably be too lazy to if they did have such resources.
Are you and others aware of what is happening in Guantanamo? Are you aware of the damage the Bush administration has done to our nation's reputation abroad?
Anyone who knows to obtain information from multiple sources from throughout the world would have a better idea of what is happening than someone who relies solely on US corporate-owned news, especially the propaganda mouthpieces of the current administration, such as Fox News and certain internet sites.
Edited by anglagard, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Malachi-II, posted 07-02-2006 3:45 AM Malachi-II has not replied

Replies to this message:
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