castor oil packs-real treatment or quackery?

Actually, Schraf, from the folks who brought us such noble cures as DDT and thalidomide, I would think regular science should have the grace to blush occasionally.

In looking for info on transdermal absorption I found mention of linoleic acid and oleic acid quite a bit.Both of these are considered to be penetration enhancers. Castor Oil contains both oleic and linoleic acids. Is it possible that the oleic and linoleic acids act as penetration enhancers and allows the ricinoleic acid or one of the other fatty acids in castor oil to penetrate the skin?

Gosh, PD, when I saw 'penetration enhancers', I thought you were-----never mind.

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Nutraceuticals are god-given nutrients that are readily available for our good health, but drug companies want to make them illegal to buy and use ? unless they can sell them to increase their bank accounts.

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Evidence for this assertion, please.

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Actually, Schraf, from the folks who brought us such noble cures as DDT and thalidomide, I would think regular science should have the grace to blush occasionally.

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Yes, of course, but come on.The issue with me, is the naturopatic crowd's utter inability to blush.At least Thalidomide and DDT actually DO something. They WERE actually effective for their intended use. It was only their very detrimental unintended side effects that made them undesireable for continued use.And, I'll add, DDT isn't medicine. It's also interesting that you have to reach back 40 years for examples.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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They WERE actually effective for their intended use.

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Just as ephedra was safe and effective for its original use.Many medications went through all the prescribed testing and were approved by the FDA. They were also pulled from the market later due to safety and/or effectiveness issues.But you're veering your own thread off topic. Why do I get the feeling you only want to bash naturopaths in general and not really discover anything about castor oil packs?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Just as ephedra was safe and effective for its original use.

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It was? How do you know?And, what was it's "original use"?

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Many medications went through all the prescribed testing and were approved by the FDA. They were also pulled from the market later due to safety and/or effectiveness issues.

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Yes, that's right.It's an imperfect system, but as testing methods get better, and if/when money becomes less of an influence upon politicians, we will hopefully see fewer ineffective/bad therapies and drugs being approved in the first place.OTOH, What are the percentages of "bad" therapies and treatments that later needed to be recalled compared to those that didn't have to be?There are literally billions and billions of people who have taken thousands of different OTC and prescription medications over the decades. Vaccines, too.In the aggregate, I think I like the fact that chidren don't die en masse from childhood diseases anymore, that simple bacterial infections don't kill and maim at the rate they used to, and that if my MD prescribes a treatment or drug, it has gone through years of the best (thogh imperfect) testing methods we are aware of to prove it's effectiveness against placebo and to identify possible short and long-term side effects.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

Once again, PD - those fatty acids are indeed present in castor oil, but very nearly entirely in chemically combined forms. Specifically, they are present as esters with glycerol, called triglycerides. Exactly the same as how three molecules of stearic acid combined with one molecule of glycerine makes up most of what we call beef tallow. All of the natural fats and cooking oils I know of - lard, tallow, soybean oil, safflower oil, whale oil, olive oil, etc. - are combinations of three fatty acids (those on your list or dozens of others) with one glycerol. (Glycerol is the same thing as glycerine.)
And all of those fatty acids are very close cousins, chemically, to each other. They differ in how they are metabolized, but any of 'em have to get into the body before they get metabolized at all. And skin absorption is going to be a might slow route for getting in.

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But you're veering your own thread off topic. Why do I get the feeling you only want to bash naturopaths in general and not really discover anything about castor oil packs?

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Here's the only thing I'm interested in discovering about castor oil packs, PD:Do they work?Show me the study
(and replication, preferably) that shows that they do what people claim they do.Show me the evidence that your ND is using that justifies his or her prescribing it as a treatment.You've compared castor oil packs to aspirin in the sense that we don't know the exact mechanism of how it works. The difference is, of course, that aspirin has been shown in controlled studies to work better than placebo for several kinds of symptoms, and castor oil packs have not.All of this discussion about how castor oil packs could work are irrelevant if they don't work.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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No, they aren't my questions and I'm not going to ask her unreasonable questions for a debate board, especially since I don't feel that you would accept anything she said.

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Why do you think I wouldn't accept what she would say?I mean, what is so unreasonable about the following questions from the OP?: I mean, why wouldn't you want to know if your ND has wondered about such questions herself?

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Do they work?

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And I gave you that answer in Message 38. Dr. McGarey has shown that the packs work for various ailments.And Message 42:

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Show me the evidence that your ND is using that justifies his or her prescribing it as a treatment.

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The documented clinical studies.Supposedly to date there have been no double blind studies on whether castor oil packs work or not. There have been clinical studies.William McGarey, M.D.
Dana Myatt, M.D.The only double blind studies that I have read about concern the lymphocytes and looking at how the castor oil packs work. I believe William McGarey, MD was first to notice the rise in lymphocytes, then Harvey Grady did a double blind study.Why would they study how they work if they don't work?

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You've compared castor oil packs to aspirin in the sense that we don't know the exact mechanism of how it works. The difference is, of course, that aspirin has been shown in controlled studies to work better than placebo for several kinds of symptoms, and castor oil packs have not.

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And you're not going to find that kind of study by the people you would believe, because there's no big money in the outcome. They can't patent it. There is no return on the money spent for research.It is the same as willow bark to aspirin. There were supposedly no double blind studies done to see IF willow bark worked; but there were studies to figure out why it worked and then of course the active ingredient was then synthesized and patented.Since the drug industry feels they already have drugs to deal with the ailments that castor oil has been found to deal with, IMO they aren't going to spend money to figure out why/how it works or IF it works better than their drugs.So you are left with individual MDs and NDs documenting clinical studies funded by places like A.R.E. and the Fetzer Foundation.That's all I got. If the source of that info is not acceptable to you, then that is your choice; but your lack of acceptance doesn't mean the packs don't work.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

It`s medicine for sick plants. Or are you saying humans are the only ones that need cures? BTW, DDT is still in use in third world countries.
How many drugs have been pulled in the last decade because they aren`t safe? And of course, the real science defending nicotine continues.

Er, isn't DDT actually a pesticide?, and wasn't it used primarily to kill mosquitos in malarial regions?

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How many drugs have been pulled in the last decade because they aren`t safe?

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I don't know, and that number isn't important anyway.What is important is the ratio of lives saved by drugs compared to those hurt by drugs.Drugs are always a cost/benefit situation.The point also is that there is an effective, though imperfect, system in place to discover, both before release and after, which drugs are effective and relatively safe. To be sure, money is too much an issue and we emphasize prevention far too little in this country because of the power of the insurance and drug companies.There is no system, though, for the so-called "natural" or botanical drugs that currently are allowed to be sold as "nutritional supplements" when most of them clearly have no nutritive value and really are marketed and prescribed as drugs by the retailers and "practitioners".

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And of course, the real science defending nicotine continues.

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It isn't very clear if Nicotine itself causes health problems in the amounts people put into their bodies when they use tobacco.It's all the toxins absorbed by way of the delivery system that have been implicated as the cause, over time, all of the catastrophic illness.

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There is no system, though, for the so-called "natural" or botanical drugs that currently are allowed to be sold as "nutritional supplements" when most of them clearly have no nutritive value and really are marketed and prescribed as drugs by the retailers and "practitioners".

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You keep implying that there is no system, but I have shown what the FDA requires and have noted that while the system is imperfect, it is improving. FDA Support for TestingJust because the system is different than for manmade drugs, doesn't negate the results.I don't recall any info from you showing that the FDA system, clinical trials, etc. are the problem as opposed to improper usage.If all you are squawking about is that they are currently classified as nutritional supplements, I've already shown you that the American Chinese Medicine Association in a letter to Congress agrees that herbal medicine should not be lumped in with nutritional supplements, but also shouldn't be categorized with pharmaceutical drugs. It took time for the pharmaceutical system to develop and it will take time for the herbal drug system to develop.So in light of this topic, are you saying that castor oil is an herbal drug? If yes, why?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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It took time for the pharmaceutical system to develop and it will take time for the herbal drug system to develop.

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I see no reason at all why herbal drugs should be treated any differently than synthetic drugs with regards to testing for efficacy and safety.If I were to test willow bark extract for safety and efficacy, why should treat it any differently than the synthetic form of acetylsalicylic acid?It is anti-science and special pleading to treat them any differently.Castor oil packs, used as you describe, are not a drug, unless there is some kind of active substance which makes it into the bloodstream. So far, the only plausible reason given for the rise in T-cells is the localized irritation of the skin due to the heat of the pad and the possibility of an immune response to the absorption of residual ricin, the powerful poison.If such absorption of ricin would be demonstrated, then yes, I would call it a drug, or, more accurately, a poison.The packs are a treatment meant to treat a disease which has been prescribed by someone who recieves renumeration for giving medical advice.Therefore, they should be investigated and regulated as strictly and carefully just like any other medical treatment, and those who prescribe them should be as well.