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Member (Idle past 6139 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Silent H writes:
quote: Universally? Of course not. As crashfrog pointed out, if the parent wants the child dead, then clearly others need to step in and point out that no, the parents do not have the right to kill their children. On a question of human rights: When a question of conscience requires a modification of the body, it would seem appropriate that such decisions be left to the person whose body is about to be altered. If a religious rite requires body modification, then we should wait until the person is capable of making that religious decision for himself. Now, is that a universal? Of course not. But it is a place to start. One has to explain why someone other than the person being altered is in a position to force that alteration. If you feel like you need to alter your body, you go ahead and do it...but it is your decision to make and not someone else's. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi writes:
quote: Considering that more males will die from MGM than the total number of females who undergo FGM, I agree: Using this term is dishonest. It's part of the socialization of being male: Your life is not important. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Silent H responds to me:
quote: Is there some definition of "universal" I am unaware of? I think it's pretty clear that I am saying that no right is absolute. Parents do have the right to raise their children and to impose their wills upon their children. But that right is not universal. There are some things they are not allowed to do. Since we all agree there is a line, the question reduces to deciding where to draw it. That task is much more difficult than deciding if there should be a line in the first place.
quote: Which would be the complete opposite of what I was saying. Have we wandered into conservative-land where every day is Opposite Day?
quote: For the same reason that killing isn't a right in general. Please, let us not be disingenuous and come up with trivial cases such as the child is physically attacking the parent who is afraid for his life and kills his child in self-defense. This goes back to what I said before: Universally? Of course not. You will notice, however, that the above scenario doesn't really fall under the heading of "parenting." It is a question of self-survival. We can come up with examples of parents withholding treatment to their terminally ill children that would, but we're back to my basic point: Universally? Of course not. But that would be playing with trivialities. Let us not trivialize this.
quote: We do. As a society. If we are going to value the ability for people to make their own decisions of conscience (for we certainly wish we would have that ability for ourselves), then it makes sense that we do what we can to let them make those decisions. It's a bit hypocritical to value freedom of thought and not allow people to exercise it. If we're going to take that decision away from them, then we had better come up with a pretty good reason why (see..."Universally? Of course not.")
quote: Hmmm...what was it that I said...I think it was, "Universally? Of course not." Now what might that mean? Is there a definition of "universal" I am unaware of?
quote: Indeed. What was it that I said? Something about, "Universally? Of course not." Parents have a job to do. There will always be impositions on children by their parents. And there will always be impositions on parents by society. But to use your Jewish example, if it's an affront to forcibly convert Jews to Christianity (witness the post-humous baptism of Jews that has been carried out by Mormons and the actions of the Catholics on Jews), isn't it also an affront to forcibly submit an infant to the Covenant? There is no going back. Therefore, we need to be very sure about what we're doing.
quote: But not trivially. Why are you trivializing this? Since I have admitted from the get go that we're not talking about universals, why are you trying to focus on the trivial examples where the non-existent universal does not apply? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote: Think about it: What is the complication rate of MGM? And how many men in the world have undergone MGM? Therefore, how many men will die because of MGM? How many will need to undergo sex re-assignment surgery? How many will have that "permanent, infected wound" you find so horrendous? How many women undergo FGM? Hint: This doesn't mean FGM is something other than horrendous. It means that trivializing MGM as "snipping off a little tiny bit of flesh" is to treat men as worthless. Which one is larger?
quote:quote: There, you just did. That "little tiny bit of flesh" means the boy DIES. More dead boys. More dead boys than all of the females that undergo FGM. And here you are, trivializing it. And thus, you perpetuate the notion: Men's lives are not important. The death of a male is not as important as the disfigurement of a female.
quote: I don't have to, fool. Now that we have the ad hominem out of the way.... Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes:
quote: Not really. Legislation was passed banning FGM in the United States despite the fact that we couldn't find a single instance of it having happened here. Since the pasage of the legislation, not a single prosecution has ever been carried out. Does that mean there are no women in the US who have undergone FGM? Of course not. It means that the girls are sent back home to have it happen. We have cases of women seeking asylum to prevent being sent back to Africa to have it performed (which is a recognized category of asylum in the US), but there is very little evidence of it happening here in the US. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Silent H responds to molbiogirl:
quote:quote: A fetus is not a child. And to bring up abortion is to trivialize the issue. Since we all recognize that no right is absolute, focusing on trivial examples where a non-universal does not apply is disingenuous at best.
quote: The expected outcome of immunization is the prevention of death, not the cause of death. While we know that immunization presents a risk of death, the risk of death from the diseases we're innoculating against is greater. And once again, it trivializes the discussion. Since we all recognize that no right is absolute, focusing on trivial examples where a non-universal does not apply is disingenuous at best.
quote: To do nothing will lead to the death of both. And thus, bringing it up is to focus on trivia. Since we all recognize that no right is absolute, focusing on trivial examples where a non-universal does not apply is disingenuous at best.
quote: Of course. All morality is arbitrary. Some methods are more effective than others. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Silent H responds to me:
quote: There is some other definition of "universal" I am unaware of?
quote: Playing dumb is a good thing? Barring complete ignorance, confusion only arises when there are multiple possible outcomes. There is some other definition of "universal" I am unaware of?
quote: Playing dumb is.
quote: All I said is that we all agree there is a line. Since we're talking about arbitrary systems, "must" only applies in the sense of the system we have arbitrarily created.
quote: Really? Where?
quote: We're back to the question of whether or not there is an absolutist in the world: No, there isn't. Everybody is a relativist. It doesn't matter if they say they are. All you have to do is watch them and you see that circumstances affect their reactions. So if we're never going to see it, how can we base any results upon what never happens?
quote: Here we go with the playing dumb again. Your response to molbiogirl's similar claim was to cite abortion, immunization, and separation of conjoined twins. Do you think I'm stupid?
quote: Certain arbitrary constructions of morality are more effective than others.
quote: According to their own traditions, god can wait. Otherwise, there'd be no way to convert.
quote: Please remember, next time you post, don't play dumb. Okay? And don't treat others as if they were stupid. Okay? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Silent H responds to me:
quote: No, it isn't. It is on the way to becoming a child, but it isn't there yet.
quote: Yes, it was for we are talking about arbitrary killing, not unexpected outcomes. Your example is interesting only in an academic sense and is thus a piece of trivia, tangentially related to the question at hand. I did not say it was without effect. I said it was trivial.
quote: Oh, I agree that they aren't trying to kill the women outright. The idea that they are "preventing death" is risible. However, the intent is to control women and to try and say that the discussion is about the specific outcome of the bodily alteration (death versus disfigurement) and not the forced bodily alteration regardless of outcome is to play dumb. Do you think we're stupid?
quote: Incorrect. It is trivial. It is an attempt to bog the discussion down in trivial details when the point is the process leading to those details. Again, notice that I am not saying there are no effects or that those effects are not of any concern. By "trivial," I do not mean "innocuous."
quote:quote: Again with the playing dumb. You said, and I quote:
How about parents with conjoined twins and can have one killed for the proposed better life of the other? The separation of conjoined twins where it is known that the separation will lead to almost certain death of one of them is not carried out unless leaving them conjoined will kill both of them. Otherwise, the separation of conjoined twins is carried out with the hope of saving both of them. The parents aren't killing their child.
quote: No, there aren't. Conjoined twins are never separated where remaining conjoined is not life-threatening but separation will most certainly lead to the death of one. Try and find the team of doctors to carry it out and a hospital that will provide the operating theaters. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Silent H responds to me:
quote: No, I think your question means you are playing dumb. And your pretending to not understand the difference only means you are unwilling to engage in serious discussion. You want to bog it down in trivia.
quote: No, it wasn't. It was part of a continued expression of ideas. To pretend that the entire sequence has no effect on the meaning of the individual words is to play dumb. Especially since I went on to give an example that even though it is accepted doesn't lead to a "universal" claim. In short, I used a word and then proceded to define precisely what I meant by it. And then you claimed confusion? Do you think I'm stupid?
quote: Well, considering that you didn't use that term, I am hard pressed to comprehend how anybody could interpret my use of the word as a request for you to clarify your use of it. Unless you're playing dumb again.
quote: And yet, here you are saying that you weren't talking about what you directly posited to molbiogirl when she made the same argument crashfrog and I were making. Are you playing dumb again?
quote: And there you go with the playing dumb again. We all made the same argument to you, Silent H:
crashfrog writes: So, what about a physical change to being dead? When a parent chooses to murder their children because they think being dead is in the child's best interest, is that a cultural practice you get behind, because parents universally know best? Rrhain writes: As crashfrog pointed out, if the parent wants the child dead, then clearly others need to step in and point out that no, the parents do not have the right to kill their children. molbiogirl writes: I would argue, however, that no parent has the right to kill his/her child, whether thru medical neglect or mutilation. We're all using the same argument. To pretend that you were responding to "different debate arcs" is disingenuous at best. Do you think we're stupid?
quote:quote: Only in the sense of observing the results.
quote: And yet, here you are, an entire post of playing dumb and treating others as stupid.
quote: And yet, here you are, bickering.
quote: You reap what you sow.
quote: Thanks. It's me as Adam as Jess as Hamlet from The Complete Works of William Shakespeare (abridged) doing the "What a piece of work is man" speech...about the only serious moment in the entire play. Second time I've done it (previously playing Daniel). All I need is one more as Jess and I'll have the hat trick. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: But by coming here where it isn't performed and one can seek asylum from being sent back to Africa where it would be performed, it would seem the tradition is being broken. If it doesn't happen here and the number of women who eventually undergo it is smaller than would have been the case had they stayed in Africa, how does that keep the tradition "intact"? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote: Yes, they can. They'll need emancipation, too, but it can be done.
quote: I never said otherwise. You seem to be heading down the road of insinuating that I am trying to defend FGM in some way. Even if it happens once, it is too many times. But the attitude presented by some (and you're engaging in it to some degree) is that there is a huge problem here in the United States. Just because something is rare doesn't make it other than horrendous, but we have to avoid the opposite illogic: That because it is horrendous, that makes it something other than rare. Note the attempt to manipulate emotion in the report, conflating those who have undergone FGM with those who are "at risk" while at the same time not defining what "at risk" means. We live in a society where unless something is the apocalypse, nobody will pay attention. Eveything has to described in the most breathless manner lest there be an accusation of bias. But by treating the situation in the US as identical to the situation in Africa, by insinuating that the West is a heartbeat away from having FGM being as commonplace as MGM, is to do a disservice to the women who are actually undergoing FGM, diverting funds and services from those who need it to those who don't, creating a social climate where people think all women of a certain cultural background have been victimized when they haven't, etc. Hype never helped anything. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote:quote: Yes, you did. Here: You say it again:
quote: "Properly"? How does one flay a person alive "properly"?
quote: Ahem. Even when done under medical supervision, little boys quite often die from the procedure. Why? Because circumcision is when you [I][B]FLAY SOMEONE ALIVE[/i][/b]. How is that ever done "properly"? "Tiny little bit of flesh"? Little boys DIE from that "tiny little bit of flesh." And thus, you show that you are continuing the sexism: Men's lives are not important. The death of a male is not as important as the disfigurement of a female.
quote: Funny. That's my argument to you. But then again, sexism isn't rational. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes:
quote: You're off by a factor of at least 1000. And since when did the United States represent the typical case of MGM?
quote: And yet, how man men undergo MGM compared to women undergoing FGM? More men will die from MGM than all the women who undergo any type of FGM. How many men have to die before you consider it something to be ashamed of? Give us a number so we won't have to bother you until we hit it. Or is the life of a man worth less than the disfigurement of a woman?
quote: You do realize that you just contradicted your previous stat, yes? 1:500,000 is not 1.5%. Which is it? And again, what makes you think the medicalized version of the United States is the typical method? The British Journal of Urology puts it at 2-10%. Urologic Clinics of North America has it at about the same at 5% (though about 10% have to undergo the procedure twice which, by my mind, means the complication rate is 15%.) How does one flay someone alive "properly"?
quote: Same for MGM. Typical complications are: InfectionUrinary retention Meatitis Chordee Cysts Lymphadema Fistulas Necrosis (especially with the Plastiball method) Hypospadias Epispadias Impotence And in those rare occasions where anesthesia is involved, all the complications from anesthesia get added. Of course, MGM is rarely done under anesthesia which means the boy is [I][B]FLAYED ALIVE[/i][/b]. How does one flay somebody "properly"? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi responds to me:
quote: Then I have to wonder if you've been paying attention. You wanna know why that bizarre pigmentation zig-zag happens between the skin just below the glans and the rest of the shaft? That makes it look like an unusually localized case of vitiligo? Because that's where the skin was literally torn off. The glans is still attached and needs to be torn away from the glans, leaving the entire area covered in scar tissue. And it seems you've never met a man with a skin bridge.
quote: Hell, there are way too many African women for this to be an accurate representation of reality. Hmmm...if the fact that women survive the procedure is no counter to the claim that it is barbaric, why is that not sufficient for the men? Oh, that's right...I keep forgetting. Men are not as valuable as women.
quote: When was it established that I was circumcized? Does the status of my penis have any effect on whether or not another boy dies from circumcision?
quote: And they haven't been denied. One wonders why you're so intent on denying the very real impacts of MGM. But, that's a hallmark of sexism: The attitude that if something bad happens to both men and women, that somehow diminishes and denies the effect it has on women. How does the fact that X is a barbaric procedure affect the barbarism of Y? Is there only so much compassion to go around? Is this a zero-sum game? Talk about being insane.... Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 327 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
brennakimi writes:
quote: Boys die from MGM. Girls die from MGM. They're both just as dead, but for you to then say that they aren't equivalent necessarily means that the life of a male is not as valuable as the life of a female.
quote: Incorrect. What is the world population of men who have been circumcised? Think carefully. On top of that, of the areas where women undergo FGM, how many of those countries also practice MGM?
quote: Incorrect. More men are circumcised outside the US than inside. Just how many men do you think in the world have undergone genital mutilation?
quote: It causes death. Oh, but I keep forgetting...the death of a male isn't as significant as the death of a female. Since you seem to be stuck on the survival rate, would you be happy if FGM became as medicalized as MGM is in the West? We do much more invasive surgeries to women's reproductive organs all the time. Epesiotomies and even sexual reassignment surgeries are common enough. If the rate of death were reduced for FGM, would that make it any better?
quote: But that's one of the common complications from MGM. Oh, that's right...I keep forgetting...when it happens to a man, it isn't as bad as when it happens to a woman.
quote: Only if one looks at the West. In other countries, where MGM is more common, that isn't true. It's part of the ritual of becoming a man.
quote: You mean like infants?
quote: You mean like death? Oh, that's right...I keep forgetting. The life of a man isn't as valuable as the life of a woman. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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