What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?

While it may well not be off-topic, might the economics discussion perhaps be best served by its own topic?Link back to a good spot in this topic if you do start a new topic.Adminnemooseus

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Don't you think, though, if that was the case CEO compensation would reflect their performance, like everybody else who has a real job?Instead, they make millions no matter what boneheaded things they do.

Going to give this one a break (temp. closing).Spin-off economics topic time.Probably reopening in a few hours.Adminnemooseus

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Someone please start an economics topic.Wish to respond to this message? See my sig for the place to do it.Adminnemooseus

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Do something special and get a bonus, but it is not justification for a major salary increase. The same option should be available for anyone: what if a worker in a bar makes that same contact that your manager made with the same result?Likewise there could be agreed upon "hazard" or "danger" or "disgusting job" etc pay bonuses based on actual hours in those conditions.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

That is a great way to ensure that only the rich are fully protected.What makes them so special in this regard?(Scams are scams, and when shrubbie stops insulting me then I might consider it.)

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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However, they don't always compete as well as a decisive structured organization.

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Actually, the opposite seems to be the case.Southwest Airlines was the only airline to remain profitable when all of the other domestic airlines were in the red, and they have something very different than the typical higherachical corporate structure.http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~bunz/southeast.pdfI can also give my own company as an example. Here's an article in Inc.:The Coolest Small Company in America | Inc.com'The environment is, indeed, ZCoB's most striking feature, combining a strong sense of community, a deep belief in people, a fascination with management and business, and a passion for great food and great service. It's an entrepreneurial environment in which good ideas become real businesses, and employees with good ideas have an opportunity to become owners. More to the point, it's an environment that many can't resist. "Working here has never felt like a job to me," says Wickstrom. "I'm constantly learning about managing, about food, and about myself."'

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Decision-making and risk/reward can get murky and hard to reconcile. Some fail because of the competing self-interests of human nature in a company "run by workers". I am back to the evolution analogy of businesses surviving.

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Of course, you forget that humans are social animals, not loners.One of the major reasons we humans became successful is because of our abilito to work together towards a common goal.We have a well-developed sense of fairness, too, which is why we are having this discussion.Most humans are team players who are willing to work in a group to accomplish something, and if we are treated fairly as far as rewards and compensation, and as long as we see that those with greater responsibility actually do more work, I think most of us have no problem with people with greater responsibility getting greater compensation.At least, this is how it is in my company.Of course, those of us at the bottom and mid-level of the company have higher wages than the industry average, and those at the top
have lower wages than the average.Additionally, we practice open book management, so aside from individuals' compensation everybody knows and discusses the financials of their department every week.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-03-2004 09:48 AM

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Convincing people to do something that cost them something (material or time) is difficult. It is a skill. Bill Clinton certainly has it. He's so good that he can take your wealth without your realizing it... and if fact, he can get many folks to go along enthusiastically!

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Convincing people to do something that cost them something (material or time or human lives) is difficult. It is a skill. Bush, Rice, Powel, and Cheney certainly have it. They are so good that they can invade a sovereign nation that was not a threat to us without any evidence at all that WMD exist or they are connected with 9/11 or Al Qaida... and if fact, they can get many folks to go along enthusiastically!

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I advocate the establishment of medical savings accounts, caps on litigation, and, most radically of all, making all forms of health insurance, public and private, illegal. This would remove much excess cash and overhead from the system. For example, MDs would be forced to charge more reasonable rates that are actually affordable and accept the more modest compensation of DVMs.

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What if I need a bone marrow transplant that costs 50,000 and I don't have that much in my medical savings account?

I am pleased to see successful organizations as you describe!
Maybe there is hope, after all.Nevertheless, my point is that our system is already set-up to allow innovation and adaptation. We don't need more government programs to enable worker-led organizations to compete. You actually proved my point.I am not in favor of the excessive salaries and perks of top executives, either. The question is how to agree upon and keep leadership talent at compensation that is (cringe) "fair". Do we need (cringe) government regulation at all, and how would that be implemented? Another part of the issue is keeping unethical practices and corruption in check.

It is very telling that every arguement you have boils down to the fact that you think managers do nothing except steal, rob, and sit on their tail. First off, managers do play a pivotal role. They have to organize efforts, provided communication between different aspects of the company. Frankly, your concept of how any organization functions is deluded. You talk about bias, but your every response is indicitive of your own.

I suggest we start a pointed and focused new thread on this topic. Perhaps "What are the comparative strengths and weaknesses of various economic systems.". Any suggests for refininement, before we propose the topic?

Why does it cost 50K now ? Could it cost less with a more efficient system of medical funding and delivery ?If not, then you have a counterargument to my proposed scheme. Perhaps instead of abolishing health insurance, it needs restructuring to cover only catastrophic risk, and to eliminate inefficiencies in the current system.

Reread my post. You seem to think my argument is against government coercion per se. Rather, I argued that leftist economics (involving direct government intervention in markets and economic operations, and often government ownership of enterprises) and libertarianism (an absence of government coercion, except the minimal required to preserve social order) were inconsistent concepts.At most, you have an issue with my defintions of the terms "leftist economics" and "libertarianism". If you have more precise definitions, propose them. Your charge of circular reasoning, however, does not hold here.

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It is very telling that every arguement you have boils down to the fact that you think managers do nothing except steal, rob, and sit on their tail. First off, managers do play a pivotal role. They have to organize efforts, provided communication between different aspects of the company. Frankly, your concept of how any organization functions is deluded. You talk about bias, but your every response is indicitive of your own.

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Well, speaking from my own experience in a very progressively-run company in which the staff come first and the customer comes second and the profits come third, I definitely agree that at least my managers work frigging HARD, and do crucial work in our organization.I don't know if this is true in most companies, however, as most companies are not run anything close to how mine is run.